Mercedes GLC Clonking and juddering on near full steering lock

[Markymarkf]

just had a call from my Mercedes dealer in Newcastle. Basically telling me this is how it is, and that he has had only a couple of owners report this issue, he did however state that this also happens on other 4matic models, when he received my email he started asking questions among the team for any information, they went out and test drove a C Class estate 4matic and this did the same as the GLC, he did not use the term characteristic but I got the impression that's what he was saying, He has advised that I will be getting a call from a technician either Monday or Tuesday to discuss this. Again I was offered to part exchange my car and that he would look after me, but already said the he could not offer a full buy back. and would be trade value, I really don't want to change my car nothing out there I really like in my price range. I shall wait for next week and see

 

[DRIVER200]

Good luck mate we are all waiting to hear back with their findings. But not to over emphasis the point again but the Porsche Boxster -probably the best 'real world two seater sports car' also suffers from this problem. As I haven't thoroughly researched any Porsche forums can't say just how bad but nevertheless if Porsche who are probably the worlds best sports car maker decide not to engineer this out then there must be a very good reason which -guessing- is the same reason certain MB cars suffer the same problem. And probably Porsche will not make potential Boxster owners aware of this 'Characteristic' prior to sale.

Just did one quick Google search and picked these up:

New Boxter Clunking Steering On Full Lock - Page 1 - Porsche General - PistonHeads

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1369684

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=231&t=1361206&nmt

As Michael Jackson once said ''You are not alone''

 

[st13phil]

You aren't the only engineer on here Actually my pre-fix is ing and also got a Drs if you really want to go down that route.

Nope, no need for any willy-waving here. Just remember that many (most?) of the posters on these threads are unlikely to be, so they aren't aware that emotional and subjective arguments aren't likely to convince an Engineer that they're wrong

Take today temperatures are well above 7 degrees and the car is consistently and persistently doing this.

As an Engineer you know very well that there isn't some kind of strange voodoo that happens at precisely 7c. The trait is also dependent upon the condition of the tyres. For example, I know that my E63 will do it even at 8c - 10c if the shoulders of the (summer) tyres are well worn, whereas on the same brand/type of tyre when new it won't do it at even 4c - 5c. Can you post up a photo of the shoulder wear on your tyres for comparison to those that Tony Mac has posted?

The TIPS document is dated very recent, well after this has surfaced and started to grow in common knowledge. Sure it may be seen by the design team as an acceptable compromise, that doesn't mean they shouldn't inform their customers of such a decision which has got such a profound impact.

TIPS documents aren't pre-emptive: they're published as a result of in-service learnings, so it's no surprise that it's recent. And if the design team did, indeed, consider it an acceptable compromise I can't imagine why they'd bother to mention it in advance. It would have been signed off as acceptable, and that would have been it.

As such I come to a different conclusion, and I doubt design intent and lean more towards inadequate testing of the right hand drive models.

You could be right, and I don't discount it. However, if that is the case then it's likely to be the result of a RHD packaging decision which is a hard constraint for the platform. This is something grober hinted at in one of his posts on the subject, and if that is the case then the most likely result is that the 4WD platform is deleted from RHD markets

Anyway mine will have the investigation next week, and I'm picking the warmest day of the week so they can see it is not limited to low temperatures.

Good luck, and let's hope that it leads to a resolution you're happy with.

 

[st13phil]

Attached are a couple of photos ( not easy taking pics of tyres) showing the extent of the tyre wear on the outer edge of the offside front wheel, after 8,000 miles

Thanks. For reference, that degree of shoulder wear looks similar to what I expect on my E63 at about 12k miles.

 

[rf065]

The shoulder wear looks more like a tracking problem than what is being discussed here?
Just had the tracking fixed on mine after both front inner edges wore from brand new to 0mm in 8 months while the outer edge was still at 6.9mm, looked much worse than your pics. I'd book yours in for a tracking appointment with Wheels In Motion or someone who knows how to work with Hunter alignment.

In my opinion your dealing with two seperate problems which are not related.

Russ

 

[DRIVER200]

Looking through the contributors on this subject it would appear there are no (new shape) C63 owners which I find odd as you would think they too would have this problem and being a much more powerful car perhaps would notice it more?

 

[dejongj]

Nope, no need for any willy-waving here.

I was merely waving back

Just remember that many (most?) of the posters on these threads are unlikely to be, so they aren't aware that emotional and subjective arguments aren't likely to convince an Engineer that they're wrong

I tend to approach subjects from a positive angle and give people the benefit of the doubt when they report something that is not right. Especially so when I don't have the same equipment myself. There is no point in coming up with just the theory and suggest what the person is experiencing is normal. Don't forget words only make up about 7% of our communication, we do not have access to intonation nor non verbal communication. Further more, English may not be peoples first language, therefore allowances should be made for what may seem odd descriptions, or different ways of explaining things. It is a big old global world nowadays.

As an Engineer you know very well that there isn't some kind of strange voodoo that happens at precisely 7c.

Sure totally agreed, hence the universal agreed rule is that when the temperature is persistently below that temperature. However saying that, whilst it is no voodoo the lower temperatures will impact the compounds, road surface, friction, etc. Sure it isn't an on/off switch, but also lets be real. I've been living now for 20 years in the South East of England, my wife had been all her life. Never we've come across any car we own, rented, had on loan or anything that required winter tyres to avoid this from happening.

The trait is also dependent upon the condition of the tyres. For example, I know that my E63 will do it even at 8c - 10c if the shoulders of the (summer) tyres are well worn, whereas on the same brand/type of tyre when new it won't do it at even 4c - 5c.

I've done 3K miles in my new GLC43. I did it from when I got it, and is becoming worse.

Can you post up a photo of the shoulder wear on your tyres for comparison to those that Tony Mac has posted?

Sure will do tomorrow, and will also video the wheel/tyre as today (11-13 degrees where I live) was super bad. First time I felt out of control actually as the car seemed to skip sideways as in going straight whilst turning right. Funny considering my previous post was that it felt safe. Driving into Milton Keynes was especially bad getting parked up. Super embarrassing.

TIPS documents aren't pre-emptive: they're published as a result of in-service learnings, so it's no surprise that it's recent. And if the design team did, indeed, consider it an acceptable compromise I can't imagine why they'd bother to mention it in advance. It would have been signed off as acceptable, and that would have been it.

If you experienced this yourself I would truly find it hard to belief you honestly think any design team would do this as an acceptable compromise. There are so many cars out there that don't do this. If it was done on purpose I would love to understand why they have made it to this on purpose.

You could be right, and I don't discount it. However, if that is the case then it's likely to be the result of a RHD packaging decision which is a hard constraint for the platform. This is something grober hinted at in one of his posts on the subject, and if that is the case then the most likely result is that the 4WD platform is deleted from RHD markets

And lets not forget, it wasn't available on the RHD markets for many years. Sure I know this is a new platform, but the older cars were generally only in 4matic on LHD versions. I know as I had my fair share of BMW and Mercedes when living back in Holland and Germany.

Good luck, and let's hope that it leads to a resolution you're happy with.

Thank you, I really hope that will be possible because we can't really think of any alternatives that we truly like at the moment and that would make it rather difficult if they cannot fix it.

 

[Riversider]

To save me going through all the posts on the Judder problem again can someone just remind me whether there are owners who took delivery of their GLC/C during the summer months last yenar and have had no problems until the cold weather starting kicking in later in the year or have some owners had problems from day one including the summer months. Thanks. Because if there are a number of people who have had untroubled summer driving then it clearly must have something to do with the tyres and not the geometry. Yes, or have I missed something?

I took delivery in Sept and first noticed the issue in late October.

definitely a temperature problem as today with the temp at 9/10 degrees it has not occurred.

 

[Tony Mac]

I took delivery in Sept and first noticed the issue in late October.

definitely a temperature problem as today with the temp at 9/10 degrees it has not occurred.

Did your dealer inform you that you would need to purchase winter tyres a month of two after taking delivery of your new GLC?

Did your dealer mention that your new GLC would have the unsettling embarrassing and worrying characteristic of juddering and bouncing around corners between September and April - over half of the year?

Is it acceptable for UK customers to fit / purchase winter tyres when the temp drops below 10 degrees, in order to compensate for the faulty steering geometry that left-hand drive owners don't experience?

This is not the 4 x 4 slipping and sliding that members are suggesting owners of other makes are experiencing. The links to Porsche related problems are rear wheel drive not 4x4 / 4matic drive problems.

My dealer cannot reproduce this driving characteristic in any other new car they currently sell - there is something different and wrong with the GLC!

 

[dejongj]

Did your dealer inform you that you would need to purchase winter tyres a month of two after taking delivery of your new GLC?

Did your dealer mention that your new GLC would have the unsettling embarrassing and worrying characteristic of juddering and bouncing around corners between September and April - over half of the year?

Is it acceptable for UK customers to fit / purchase winter tyres when the temp drops below 10 degrees, in order to compensate for the faulty steering geometry that left-hand drive owners don't experience?

This is not the 4 x 4 slipping and sliding that members are suggesting owners of other makes are experiencing. The links to Porsche related problems are rear wheel drive not 4x4 / 4matic drive problems.

My dealer cannot reproduce this driving characteristic in any other new car they currently sell - there is something different and wrong with the GLC!

Dear Tony, you are making this up. Sure no other 4x4 in Mercedes range does this, but these design engineer did this on purpose for the GLC. It is a feature that is built in, we should be lucky they didn't charge us extra for it :bannana:

Seriously, you are totally right unfortunately.

 

[dejongj]

Ok, also a picture posted of my tyres;

451 - offside tyre
453 - nearside tyre

Mileage is about 3,200 miles. I find it an odd pattern that is appearing on the outside wall of the tyre. I'm not a tyre specialist but the pattern seems to exactly show what feeling I get into the steering wheel.

Also, I have to edit the recording a little, but I plonked a GoPro on the outside of the car to see what the tyres/wheel was doing. Considering the low speed I was 'shocked' at the sideways jumps it makes. As st13phil highlighted previously and I declined to proceed along, having seen this now, I do think there is a safety issue involved

 

[st13phil]

I find it an odd pattern that is appearing on the outside wall of the tyre.

That feathering pattern that's visible on the outer tread blocks in photo #453 where the tread block is higher on one side of the sipe than the other is reminiscent of the wear pattern you get on the outer tread blocks on certain motorcycle tyres and is a function of the tread block being distorted into a trapezoidal shape (in section view) by either drive torque (m/c rear wheel), or braking torque (m/c front wheel). Pretty unusual to see that on a car tyre, but probably a result of the scrubbing action on lock?

The circumferential wave pattern on the top of the tread block is odd too. Only on the nearside tyre and there seems to be no sign of that on the photo's that Tony Mac posted either

 

[HumberMart]

Could switching to winter tyres be doing more harm?

I ask this because I'm thinking that the jumping effect on summer tyres is in effect caused by 'stress relief' of the wind-up from the transfer box.

If you fit 'stickier tyres' that resist the jumping, are they not just adding more stress back into the transfer box and drive shafts etc?

I know the softer rubber will act as a flexible coupling to some extent, but a force that's strong enough to cause a 2T vehicle to jump, must be putting enormous strain on the drive train.

 

[DRIVER200]

Ok, also a picture posted of my tyres;

451 - offside tyre
453 - nearside tyre

Mileage is about 3,200 miles. I find it an odd pattern that is appearing on the outside wall of the tyre. I'm not a tyre specialist but the pattern seems to exactly show what feeling I get into the steering wheel.

Also, I have to edit the recording a little, but I plonked a GoPro on the outside of the car to see what the tyres/wheel was doing. Considering the low speed I was 'shocked' at the sideways jumps it makes. As st13phil highlighted previously and I declined to proceed along, having seen this now, I do think there is a safety issue involved

Well I am looking forward to what MB have to say after you present them with all this information surely they still can't expect you to still accept its a 'Characteristic'. Good luck. Would be interested to know if any C owners are having this particular tyre wearing problem.

 

[Piha]

I've had my C43 for a month and the juddering is similar to the video posted earlier. Only happens when the car/tyres are cold and happens at any outside air temp (in the last month obvs). The car is back to the dealer tomorrow for them to investigate the issue. I'll report back here as to what they have to say but I expect a response that MB head office would prefer - i.e it's a characteristic of the car, sir.

No evidence of tyre wear but still early days.

 

[DRIVER200]

I've had my C43 for a month and the juddering is similar to the video posted earlier. Only happens when the car/tyres are cold and happens at any outside air temp (in the last month obvs). The car is back to the dealer tomorrow for them to investigate the issue. I'll report back here as to what they have to say but I expect a response that MB head office would prefer - i.e it's a characteristic of the car, sir.

No evidence of tyre wear but still early days.

You might wish to take a look at this.

Mercedes-Benz refuses to fix crabbing problem on GLC and GLC Coupe | Motoring News | Honest John

 

[dejongj]

A little video of what I'm experiencing.

https://youtu.be/rO5rqpYPNjo

My apologies for not switching off the parking sensors.

 

[Riversider]

Ok, also a picture posted of my tyres;

451 - offside tyre
453 - nearside tyre

Mileage is about 3,200 miles. I find it an odd pattern that is appearing on the outside wall of the tyre. I'm not a tyre specialist but the pattern seems to exactly show what feeling I get into the steering wheel.

Also, I have to edit the recording a little, but I plonked a GoPro on the outside of the car to see what the tyres/wheel was doing. Considering the low speed I was 'shocked' at the sideways jumps it makes. As st13phil highlighted previously and I declined to proceed along, having seen this now, I do think there is a safety issue involved

MB have categorically stated that there is no safety issue. I wonder what the Department of Transport have to say about this (if they have been consulted?)

 

[Tony Mac]

Very interesting video,

A little video of what I'm experiencing.

https://youtu.be/rO5rqpYPNjo

My apologies for not switching off the parking sensors.

 

[st13phil]

A little video of what I'm experiencing.

Thanks for posting that, the footage of the tyre is more illuminating than that from inside the car.

You can clearly see that the outer edge of the tyre is loading up, just as you'd expect, and then the lateral slip. It's impossible to say with certainty from that footage, but what I didn't see was any evidence of rotational slip due to transmission wind up.

Something that did occur to me to ask is whether the skipping is sensitive to throttle, in other words on an open, neutral or trailing throttle? I would expect the problem to be worse under acceleration purely due to the additive effect of the lateral loading and rotational torque, so I'm not sure it would provide any conclusive information, but it may provide a clue as to whether the issue is primarily caused by the steering geometry or whether there's a transmission wind up component too.

It may be interesting to put the GoPro on the inside tyre in the turn to see what's happening there too.


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