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Mercedes & Renault unsure on new Formula 1 engines

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Mercedes and Renault have cast doubt on the new engine regulations proposed for Formula 1 in 2021.

Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff says he has "strong scepticism" about whether the ideas are the right way forward.

Renault Sport F1 boss Cyril Abiteboul said the proposal, made by governing body the FIA and F1 Group on Tuesday, was "a starting point for discussions".

Both said the problem was that they meant a new engine design that required a major financial investment.
 
FIA and Formula 1 set out clear direction for 2021 F1 power units

The key features of the proposals presented to manufacturer representatives at Tuesday's meeting:
  • 1.6 Litre, V6 Turbo Hybrid
  • 3000rpm higher engine running speed range to improve the sound
  • Prescriptive internal design parameters to restrict development costs and discourage extreme designs and running conditions
  • Removal of the MGUH
  • More powerful MGUK with focus on manual driver deployment in race together with option to save up energy over several laps to give a driver controlled tactical element to racing
  • Single turbo with dimensional constraints and weight limits
  • Standard energy store and control electronics
  • High Level of external prescriptive design to give ‘Plug-And-Play’ engine/chassis/transmission swap capability
  • Intention to investigate tighter fuel regulations and limits on number of fuels used

 
Ferrari are the only ones threatening to not play in the sandbox any more if they don't like the changes (see what I did there?).
 
Marchionne likened some of Liberty's ideas to those witnessed in the American Nascar stock-car racing series, which effectively uses standard cars and employs a number of artificial means to keep racing close. :eek:
A REFRESHER COURSE COURTESY OF WIKIPEDIA
Caution flag and restart procedure
When the yellow flag is displayed and the yellow caution lights around the track come on, the field is frozen immediately at the moment of caution. All scoring ends immediately and cars are to slow to pace vehicle (safety car) speed. Cars will line up behind the pace vehicle in the order in which they passed the last scoring loop on track (there are as many as 18 loops around the track, although the one at the start/finish line is the only one that counts for official race statistics). The exception to this rule is if the yellow flag waves after the white flag is thrown (or, in the case of an overtime attempt, if the yellow flag waves after the race leader has crossed the overtime line) or if the race will not be restarted (typically for rain; but sometimes for darkness if a track does not have night lights), in which case NASCAR will use video evidence to determine the finishing order.

When the caution comes out, the pit lane is immediately closed, a rule first implemented following the 1989 Atlanta 500. This is shown by a flashing red light at the entrance to pit road. Entering pit road when it is closed (with certain exceptions) is a penalty of restarting at the rear of the field. When pit road is open, a steady green light will appear at the entrance to pit road, and a green light will come on in the rear window of the pace vehicle.

During a "quickie yellow" all cars may enter pit road the first time by when it is opened. After the pit stops, the first car one lap down at the moment of caution (known as the free pass car) is permitted to go around the pace car and start the race at the rear of the field, but back on the lead lap.

During a full yellow, only lead lap cars may pit the first time by the pit road. Once the lead lap cars who have decided to pit have entered pit road, the free pass car will be sent around the pace car to earn their lap back. The next time by, all cars (including the free pass car) may pit.

Cars may pit as often as they wish at the expense of track position, but the free pass car is limited to taking fuel only at the first pit stop opportunity. If the free pass car is judged to have caused the caution (intentionally or not) there will be no free pass car.

At the one to go signal, the pace car will turn its lights off. At this point, any car that is ahead of the leader of the race will be waved around to the rear of the field. These cars are not permitted to pit until after the green flag comes back out and the race has resumed. The field will then line up double file for the restart. The leader of the race gets lane choice, but the third place car (and odd positions on back) will always start in the inside line, while the fourth place car (and even positions on back) will always start in the outside lane. The restart order is always this: Lead Lap Cars > Cars 1 or more laps down > Free Pass Car > Wave Arounds > Cars who have received a penalty.

Once the pace car has pulled into the pits, there is a restart "zone" consisting of lines painted on the outside wall of the track. The leader of the race is to begin accelerating inside this zone to resume the race. If they do not, the flagman controls the restart. The second place car may not be ahead of the leader at the moment of green flag, however either car on the front row may cross the start/finish line first.[23] Passing is not permitted until the leader of the race crosses the start-finish line. Lane changes are also not permitted until after a car clears the finish line.

Per the NASCAR rule book, a restart is official once the legal lead car crosses the start/finish line. If the green flag is waved, but NASCAR calls off the restart because of an incident before the leader crosses the start/finish line, the restart is deemed aborted.

EVERYONE GOT THAT? :confused::confused::confused::confused:

A good comparison that might be drawn is that between the premier league game and professional US gridiron football. I 'm pretty sure which one I'd chose.:rolleyes:
 
I can't help thinking that this is just more F1 politicking.

When everyone knows that aero rules are the defining element in terms of whether F1 cars can engage in close racing or not, let's come up with a different engine formula to "make things better".

Yeah, right... :rolleyes:
 
If they want to lower the cost why not make step changes to simplify the existing engines that don't require a "major financial investment". How much could it cost to remove the MGUH, it's not as if road cars have them.

Perhaps they should also have asked for the teams input before coming up with something that looks close to a finished proposal.
 
Americans have never understood (the world outside of the USA including) F1. Liberty Media are no exception. They will balls F1 up because they think making it simple will make it more attractive.

F1 is interesting because it is complex. There is room for OEM innovation and differentiation. Limiting these areas seriously undermines the value of F1 to the OEMs.

NASCAR, Indycar racing, grid iron football, baseball, are in the main dull, dull, dull... enough for Americans to find interesting. If these sports were so fantastic, they would be on TVs around the world. As it is, they really aren't.
 
You would have thought that Ross Braun knows what he is doing. I was recently reading a 2005 article from Toyota F1 engine designer. He said the combustion is what it is, we can't really change that. All we can work on is fine tuning incremental developments for a marginal gain in performance. So the new rule kind of rules this out.

It's easy to look at the "good ol' days" before computer technology advanced. Those were the exciting times when one team would experiment with basic aero packages or mechanical grip designs then gain a second a lap on the competition and then the rest of the teams are frantically copying. Actually, it was only 10 years ago when Adrian Newey came up with his innovative Red Bull front wing.

But now, technological advancements have reached the stage of diminishing returns. You would need such big budgets to make the next development step. But budgets do need to be constrained so now we are stuck in corner.
 
what ever happened to the days when a racing driver drove a V8 engined car, and it was the driver that made or lost the race with his driving skill, not the ability to switch this on or turn that off !!!!!!!!!
 
what ever happened to the days when a racing driver drove a V8 engined car, and it was the driver that made or lost the race with his driving skill, not the ability to switch this on or turn that off !!!!!!!!!
I totally agree with you...It's not romantic anymore lol...
 
Well of course they will resent the idea that the new rules on engines will mean that they will be less complicated and easier to make and so other engine makers could return to F1 racing like Cosworth and possibly some american ones as well,the current engine makers moan about costs of development but love the idea that they will win F1 or even get close to winning F1 with all that money that brings in the idea that there will be more competition and maybe a F1 team that has always been around last at the end of the season might actually be near the top is just too much for many who see their position threatened.
 
With the trend towards down-sized boosted engines with hybridisation for powertrains in road cars right across the car parc, being able to use F1 as a development and advertising platform is quite attractive for the OEMS. It also allows them to demonstrate performance and/or reliability features that help to differentiate their brand from other OEMs.

'Win on Sunday, sell on Monday'

The downside of course is that the powertrain development costs, production costs and complexity all get a bit silly, where only those with the very deepest pockets can take part in the sport.

If Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Honda or whoever find that the F1 regulations change to the point where it is no longer technically challenging at the highest level or commercially interesting in terms of brand differentiation, then they will find it difficult to continue in the sport.

As it is I do think that F1 has become too complicated and expensive. They (Ross Braun et al) need to find a strategy for managing that, without taking away the reasons for the OEMs to participate.
 
Bring back the V8s and V10s.
 
it's just getting annoying now, just set a budget and let the teams build whatever they want, all shapes and sizes, now THAT I would watch.
 
it's just getting annoying now, just set a budget and let the teams build whatever they want, all shapes and sizes, now THAT I would watch.
The difficulty with setting a budget is making sure that the big players only spend the set amount and don't hide costs elsewhere in their organisation. An additional issue is how much budget the customer teams get to spend, as their costs are quite different to the engine supplier's costs. All a bit of a minefield really.
 
and managing tyres and fuel - thought they were supposed to be racing
Ya well, I guess they are spending more time to prepare than to actually do it...I mean ya, industry and technology is evolving but it looks like soon they won't need pilots anymore haha
 
The cheapest way to make the racing more exiting would be to take two of the wheels away. :)
 

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