Mileage on auto gearbox

[Simon]

How far off topic do you think we can get this?

Sorry Bob, we can't help it.

 

[Kinky]

Well I've learnt that Jimmys got a beard - so that's interesting.

Also - referring back to the AC/DC lyrics earlier ..... if you saw the Enzo timeline documentary this evening the Beeb - it was mostly AC/DC music!

I was sat there slightly spooked by it

K

 

[Simon]

Well I've learnt that Jimmys got a beard - so that's interesting.

Also - referring back to the AC/DC lyrics earlier ..... if you saw the Enzo timeline documentary this evening the Beeb - it was mostly AC/DC music!

I was sat there slightly spooked by it

K

I saw AC/DC at the Cambridge Corn Exchange years ago. The next time I saw them was on telly and they were hugely famous.

 

[Kinky]

First time I saw them was in Dublin Oct 16th 1983 - on the 'For those about to rock' tour.

My dads mate was the promoter and I asked if I could meet them (I was only young then). He said no - but did say I could meet Shaking Stevens.

Naturally I rejected his offer.

Seen them twice more at Donnington.

For the record - all their stuff after Back in Black is crap (IMHO).

K

 

[MainMan]

Hydrocarbons are not elements, but are a relatively unstable (hence the fact they burn!) class of organic compounds made up from hydrogen and carbon (CH4, C2H6, C3H7 etc) which have been formed due to the existence of life on earth.

Thanks for the chemistry lesson Robbo, but I studied organic chemistry at Oxford - and I hate to admit that because it'll probably lead to a lot more mickey taking. What you're saying is patently nonsense, since "life" was created out of a primaeval sludge of organic compounds, so they came before "life" began. But this is all missing the point, which is that synthetic lubricants (they probably shouldn't be called oil) are specifically built up from fairly basic chemicals (which don't come from fossils). The chemical constitution of these lubricants is very different from the lubricants you get by refining oil where no synthesis is involved. The bottom line is that synthetic is MUCH better and also probably works out cheaper in the long run, because you'll find that you get better mpg.

 

[Robbo]

What you're saying is patently nonsense, since "life" was created out of a primaeval sludge of organic compounds, so they came before "life" began.

errm not quite actually. What do you think plants do? They take minerals and water from the soil, carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and, together with some sunlight, create organic compounds using good old photosynthesis. Do you really think the entire sum of organic matter present on the earth existed before life? If so, why are the other planets in the solar system made up almost exclusively of minerals, simple gases and water?

But this is all missing the point, which is that synthetic lubricants (they probably shouldn't be called oil) are specifically built up from fairly basic chemicals

What are these basic chemicals and how do they use them to synthesise the lubricants? Would you happen to know of where I could find a link as I would be interested in reading.

Also, where do the precursors for the synthetic oil originate from?

Regards, Robbo

PS sorry to all the other forum members for going way off topic.

 

[Robbo]

OK I have had a quick look around at some synthetic oil manufacturers sites for information (very little technical information on it I must say) and found this on the amsoil website:

http://bestsyntheticoil.com/dealers/amsoil/basestocks.shtml

Someday soon, we won't have conventional basestocks to kick around anymore. Superior basestocks and stricter motor oil specifications are squeezing conventional basestocks out of the market. The next passenger car oil performance specification, International Lubricants Specification and Approval Committee (ILSAC) GF-3, looks as though it will have significantly tighter volatility limits than the current ILSAC GF-2 spec has, tighter limits than conventional basestocks can meet on their own.

In fact, Harts Lubricants World (Nov. 1997) writes that demands for greater thermal stability, oxidative stability and lower volatility coupled with higher standards for automatic transmission fluids, "will soon make Group I solvent-refined oils obsolete, unless they are blended with higher quality products or synthetics to correct their limitations."

While synthetic basestocks have been available for decades, and define the quality standard for basestock performance, hydroprocessed oils and their allies are relatively new. It is the appearance of these new, highly processed mineral oils that spells the end of conventional oil, or at least its dominance of the basestock market.



What Is a Conventional Basestock?
The American Petroleum Institute defines five groups of basestocks. Groups I, II and III are mineral oils classified by the amount of saturates and sulfur they contain and by their viscosity indices. Group I basestocks are solvent refined mineral oils. They contain the most saturates and sulfur and have the lowest viscosity indices. They define the bottom tier of lubricant performance. Group I stocks are the least expensive to produce, and they currently account for abut 75 percent of all basestocks. These comprise the bulk of the "conventional" basestocks.

Groups II and III are the High Viscosity Index and Very High Viscosity Index basestocks. They are hydroprocessed mineral oils. The Group III oils contain less saturates and sulfur than the Group II oils and have higher viscosity indices than the Group II oils do. Groups II and III stocks perform better than the Group I basestocks do, particularly in measures of thermal and oxidative stability. Isodewaxing oils also belong to Groups II and III. Isodewaxing rids these mineral oils of a significant portion of their waxes, which improves their cold temperature performance greatly. Groups II and III stocks are more expensive to produce than Group I stocks are, and account for about 20 percent of all basestocks. These are the stocks that are squeezing the Group I "conventional" stocks out of the marketplace.

Group II and III stocks may be "conventional" or "unconventional": these marketing terms have no precise definitions. Generally, unconventional basestocks are mineral oils with unusually high viscosity indices and unusually low volatilities. Group II and III solvent refined mineral basestocks are "conventional.'' However, one producer calls its Group II hydrocracked isodewaxed basestock "unconventional" while another calls its Group II hydrocracked isodewaxed basestock "conventional" - because that producer has a Group III oil for which it reserves the label, "unconventional."



What About Groups IV and V?
Group IV includes polyalphaolefins (PAOs). Group V includes all other basestocks not included in Groups I, II, III and IV. Esters are Group V basestocks.

According to Lubes 'N' Greases (Nov. 1997), if basestocks were arranged in a performance pyramid, the Group I stocks would comprise the base, Groups II and III the middle and Group IV the pinnacle of performance. Group IV stocks, the PAOs, make up about 3 percent of the base oil market. (The Group V basestocks do not figure in the pyramid, presumably, because of the group's diversity, its small market share and wide range of performance.)



Net Effect
The net effect of the changing marketplace is one of increasing lubricant quality. Compared to Group I solvent refined oils, hydroprocessed Group II and III oils offer lower volatility, and when properly additized, greater thermal and oxidative stability and lower pour points. Group IV oils offer superior volatility, thermal stability, oxidative stability and pour point characteristics to those of the Group II and III oils with less reliance on additives.

For consumers, that quality increase will bring oils with lower rates of oil consumption, longer drain capabilities and better performance in high and low temperature operations.

Even with an overall increase of motor oil quality as Group I stocks are phased out of the market, the differences between Group II and III oils and Group IV oils leaves a substantial margin for product differentiation.

"We [PAO manufacturers] design the desired molecular structure in advance, then manufacture to explicit specifications,'' Jim Willis, manager of Mobil Chemical's Beaumont, Texas facility told Lubes 'N' Greases (Nov. 1997). "And you have a base oil which is absolutely consistent from batch to batch and which provides certain performance properties - in low temperature starting and pumping (characteristics that a low pour point alone don't guarantee). Volatility, wear protection, improved fuel economy - that cannot be matched by base oil produced by either process, whether it's solvent refined or hydroprocessed."

The trend toward increasing motor oil quality will not be reversed. In fact, as environmental regulations grow increasingly strict, motor oil quality will have to increase even more. And while Group II and III basestocks provide better performance than Group I basestocks do, they have lower performance ceilings than Group IV stocks do. The future belongs to the Group IV basestocks (AMSOIL Synthetic Oils are Group IV Polyalphaolefins).

To learn more about AMSOIL Synthetic Oils which are produced with Group IV Polyalphaolefin basestocks, click here:

Additives are important, but top quality basestocks are the key to a superior oil. AMSOIL Synthetic Oils give you the best of both worlds

So where do these polyalphaolefins come from that are the precursors for synth lubricants? I'll give you three guesses!

Cheers, Robbo

 

[Robbo]

Hers some more about polyalphaolefins taken from a BMW site

While synthetics are manufactured from a number of different base products, most motorcycle and automotive Group IV oils are Polyalfaolefins (PAO). PAO is a synthetic hydrocarbon liquid polymer manufactured from the monomer ethylene. It starts with a simple two-carbon molecule ethylene which is built up to a 10-carbon molecule and then three of these molecules are combined to form the polymer PAO. PAO has a complex branched structure with an olefin bond in the alpha position of one of the branches. Hydrogenated Polyalphaolefins have olefin-carbons saturated with hydrogen, which lends excellent thermal stability to this molecule.

So the polyalphaolefins are synthesised from ethylene. Now remembering back to my O level chemistry days, ethylene is formed from crude oil by a process called catalytic cracking.


So basically then (and sorry for being anal), my original comment about the fact that synthetic lubricants originate from mineral oil is, in fact, correct

Cheers, Robbo

 

[MainMan]

Now remembering back to my O level chemistry days, ethylene is formed from crude oil by a process called catalytic cracking.
Cheers, Robbo

I certainly do believe that the entire sum of matter existed before life. The term "organic" matter begs the obvious question "what do you call organic". We only call compounds "organic" because they're similar to what's found in organic life - i.e carbon hydrogen nitrogen oxygen (mainly - also various halogens). "Life" didn't create the polymers of these elements. Life was created by them.

You can certainly derive the components of synthetic lubricants from oil - by breaking it down into the building blocks you actually require, like esters. This would be fairly perverse - and expensive. So they don't do it.

Robbo, if you really want to carry on believing that all the molecules used to lubricate engines were once part of some "living" being, that's up to you. Stick with the "semi-synthetic" that the dealer puts in for you. You'll be OK.

 

[Robbo]

OK, This is the last post from me on this thread, as it is getting rather silly.

Having re-read the thread, ISTM that perhaps we are arguing over semantics and that if we could actually fully understand each other then there would be no need for an argument.

I fully understand the benefits of synthetic oil and would use nothing else in my benz.

I *think* that we are arguing over whether synthetic lubricants contain conventional mineral oil. I think we both agree that they do not. The point I am trying to make (if you read the thread it was only a lighthearted comment in any case) is that although they do not contain conventional oil, the precursors used to make synthetic lubricants actually originate from crude oil. see the connection?

Now I have done a quick search of the web including the petrochemical company websites and found that the major components of synthetic oil are amongst other things polyalphaolefins. Polyalphaolefins are commercially made from the polymerisation of ethylene. If you do a little more research you will see that that ethylene is commercially obtained from the catalytic cracking of crude oil. I am sure I will be able to find out more in the scientific literature about the actual process that is used next week and give you references if you like.

As you are implying from your reference to Oxford University that you are so much more knowledgable than everyone else, perhaps rather than rubbish anyone who dares to question you, why not come up with some credible explanation of how the precursors of synthetic lubricants (such as the polyalphaolephins and esters/organic acids) are obtained? You certainly havent come up with anything remotely credible yet. If you did do some research, I think you'll find that all of these compounds in some way or another originate from crude oil.


On second thoughts, don't bother because I have lost interest in this thread.

Over and out,

Robbo

 

[shoee]

back onto topic

Had the gearbox oil on my E220 auto estate changed today at Parkway Auto Engineers in Bristol.

Haven't driven it far yet, but seems a smoother change. They added oil bit by bit when re filling it, in between checking how the change felt - seems like quite an art.


Fingers crossed that is sorted now.

Thanks for the advice guys.