Mistaken identity

[AMGeed]

My daughter's boyfriend has just received a fixed penalty notice for allegedly driving his car on the A282 Trunk Road (Dartford-Thurrock charging section) at 20 57 on 11/12/2014 without paying the £2 50 fee. The penalty is £70 reduced to £35 if paid within 14 days.

The problem is, he was at home in Poole, Dorset, over 100 miles away but has no way of proving this.
His car is/was a Mazda MX3 but he has since sold it and bought an Audi:fail.
The small photo attached to the notice shows a car with a different shaped headlight, but its not a good photo. The reg plate is clearly the same (cloned)in the other photo.

I have advised him to deny he was driving the vehicle photographed, and my daughter can confirm he was not driving.
I also advised him to copy a photo he still has of his car, and zoom in on the headlight to show mistaken identity.
I also said to inform the DoT who issued the penalty charge that he would contest this in court if necessary.

Any other advises guys?

 

[DSM10000]

Did he buy anything with a debit or credit card or take cash out of a cashpoint around that time? If so it would tie him to the area you know he was in.

 

[AMGeed]

Unfortunately not. He says he was at home watching the box

I hope that isn't a euphemism for something else

 

[219]

Presumably this offence happened when he still had that car , and not after he sold it ?

As well as reporting to the police that there is apparently another vehicle running around with his old car's registration mark ( who knows if any speeding tickets , petrol thefts etc will be in the post to greet him or the new owner ) he might want to let whoever bought the car know in case it brings trouble to their door . They can apply for a new registration mark when it can be shown it has been cloned .

 

[AMGeed]

^ Good point. I 'll tell him this.
Yes he still had the Mazda at the time. Sold it in early January.
Thank you

 

[AMGeed]

Any chance a mod could rectify my lousy spelling of identity in the title please.

I hate poor grammar

 

[ringway]

Unfortunately not. He says he was at home watching the box

I hope that isn't a euphemism for something else

I feel your pain, but that is very funny! LOL!

 

[Piff]

How soon after the "offence" did he receive the "charge notice"?
If after 14 days, they will probably be asking him as the registered keeper to identify the driver. He is legally entitled to decline that invitation.
They can only sue the driver, not the keeper.
Pipipoo is a very good source for additional information

 

[AMGeed]

How soon after the "offence" did he receive the "charge notice"?
If after 14 days, they will probably be asking him as the registered keeper to identify the driver. He is legally entitled to decline that invitation.
They can only sue the driver, not the keeper.
Pipipoo is a very good source for additional information

The letter from DoT was dated 26/1/15 , the offence 11/12/2014.
The letter was received 30/1/2015, so approx 6 weeks later.

Thanks for that additional info

 

[Piff]

The letter from DoT was dated 26/1/15 , the offence 11/12/2014.
The letter was received 30/1/2015, so approx 6 weeks later.

Thanks for that additional info

I believe the charge notice is actually an invoice. It is currently addressed to the keeper hoping to frighten the keeper into admitting that they were the driver. Once they have the drivers details they can sue for non payment.
However, I'm picking this up with a son who has a parking/trespass charge hanging over him.
Pepipoo has been very helpful. There are some legally knowledgeable people there.

 

[brucemillar]

My Son had exactly this issue.

1. Notify the Police in writing that your car has been cloned.
2. Check with the DVLA, V5, Your car Vin Plate that it is not your car that is the clone?
3. Write back with copies of your police letter to the agency that issued the ticket.

This is now a huge issue for ANPR dependent agencies who are well accustomed to dealing with it fairly and quickly. If you have the evidence to challenge then you should not worry they will find in your favour.

NB. You may find that you get a marker put on your plate that will result in your being stopped by the Police. This is the only way that they can catch the actual cloned car/driver, unless it is already known to them.

Good luck. Please post an update.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

I hate poor grammar

Why, what's the poor old girl done to annoy you?

 

[prprandall51]

I believe the charge notice is actually an invoice. It is currently addressed to the keeper hoping to frighten the keeper into admitting that they were the driver. Once they have the drivers details they can sue for non payment.
However, I'm picking this up with a son who has a parking/trespass charge hanging over him.
Pepipoo has been very helpful. There are some legally knowledgeable people there.

If your son parked / trespassed on private property and contravened the regulations of the land's owner, why not do the decent thing and pay the "invoice" rather than waste time "defending" it.

 

[AMGeed]

My Son had exactly this issue.

1. Notify the Police in writing that your car has been cloned.
2. Check with the DVLA, V5, Your car Vin Plate that it is not your car that is the clone?
3. Write back with copies of your police letter to the agency that issued the ticket.

This is now a huge issue for ANPR dependent agencies who are well accustomed to dealing with it fairly and quickly. If you have the evidence to challenge then you should not worry they will find in your favour.

NB. You may find that you get a marker put on your plate that will result in your being stopped by the Police. This is the only way that they can catch the actual cloned car/driver, unless it is already known to them.

Good luck. Please post an update.

Thanks to the various replies, I have recommended my future son in law advise the police, and the new owner of the car what has happened.

@ Bruce. Good advise, thanks. The car being sold since the alleged offence is making a difference.That is the reason he has advised the new owner what has occurred.
I'll update any further news.

As a side note. A very similar thing happened to my wife in December. She was allegedly photographed exceeding the speed limit in Wincanton on the A303 at the same time she was working in the cash office at Waitrose 60 miles away.
I wrote back to Avon &Somerset police denying her being responsible and enclosed close up photos of her distinctive reg plate.I also wrote she was prepared to go to court if necessary.
The fine was cancelled and case closed. The evidence wasn't good enough I guess although the letter from the police didn't say why they dropped it.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

My daughter's boyfriend has just received a fixed penalty notice for allegedly driving his car on the A282 Trunk Road (Dartford-Thurrock charging section) at 20 57 on 11/12/2014 without paying the £2 50 fee.

If there was a way to transfer the £2:50 fee I paid in advance but didn't use because of traffic congestion, he's welcome to have it. The b'stards get our money any way they can.

 

[Giantvanman]

If your son parked / trespassed on private property and contravened the regulations of the land's owner, why not do the decent thing and pay the "invoice" rather than waste time "defending" it.

I don't know what his rationale would be but mine would be that under the law of trespass, you are only obliged to pay for damage to the land caused. If there are 'rules & regs' about parking, then any fine should be related to that but to do so there is a whole lot of other things that have to be complied with so that's why the unscrupulous say it's a parking offence but they to impose a fine under trespass.

If you haven't looked at Pepipoo, it really is a worthwhile read to save you from the unscrupulous who count on people just paying because they don't know the law and about the illegal activities of such landowners/agents/etc.

 

[prprandall51]

I don't know what his rationale would be but mine would be that under the law of trespass, you are only obliged to pay for damage to the land caused. If there are 'rules & regs' about parking, then any fine should be related to that but to do so there is a whole lot of other things that have to be complied with so that's why the unscrupulous say it's a parking offence but they to impose a fine under trespass.

If you haven't looked at Pepipoo, it really is a worthwhile read to save you from the unscrupulous who count on people just paying because they don't know the law and about the illegal activities of such landowners/agents/etc.

But the logical extension of that would be that I can park my car on your driveway whenever I like - even if I block your car in or prevent you accessing your garage - but it is only an issue if I actually cause damage.

 

[Giantvanman]

Sort of but that's not the point. There are dodgy companies who approach landowners offering to manage the land. They erect signs that says parking restrictions apply but then send out fines for trespass. This in itself is an illegal practice (saying one thing and doing another) because they are circumventing the rules and regs surrounding parking management (licensing etc) but they also fall fowl of the legal system in another way; they tell the DVLA that they require the reg keepers details for a parking fine and then issue a fine for trespass. I don't know if you recollect that there a clampdown (new rules) for any company that enforces parking regs.
It is an industry riddled with conmen and very dodgy and illegal practices……….if it's a fine for trespass, what was the damage. If it's a fine for parking, there are rules attached to that…..you are not allowed anymore to just fine people for parking on private land unless stringent rules are met.

The law of trespass does seem daft and is definitely outdated.

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q441.htm

 

[prprandall51]

Sort of but that's not the point. There are dodgy companies who approach landowners offering to manage the land. They erect signs that says parking restrictions apply but then send out fines for trespass. This in itself is an illegal practice (saying one thing and doing another) because they are circumventing the rules and regs surrounding parking management (licensing etc) but they also fall fowl of the legal system in another way; they tell the DVLA that they require the reg keepers details for a parking fine and then issue a fine for trespass. I don't know if you recollect that there a clampdown (new rules) for any company that enforces parking regs.
It is an industry riddled with conmen and very dodgy and illegal practices……….if it's a fine for trespass, what was the damage. If it's a fine for parking, there are rules attached to that…..you are not allowed anymore to just fine people for parking on private land unless stringent rules are met.

The law of trespass does seem daft and is definitely outdated.

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q441.htm

I own a piece of land in the centre of the town in which I live. It is used by our employees to park upon. There are clear notices that say it is private and that no parking is allowed. I also have an arrangement with one of the companies that you describe and their signs are displayed, too.

Despite it being obvious this is not a free car park, shoppers very often park on it to save themselves having to pay for parking in the public parks or to save themselves the two minute walk to the centre from the Council car park. Often they block our employees' cars in without a moment's thought as to whether that might inconvenience them. When challenged they usually say "I have only been there for a while" as if that excuses their thoughtlessness.
Accordingly, I derive a huge amount of pleasure from photographing their cars and submitting their registration numbers for invoices / fines (whatever you want to call them) to be issued. I dare say some of them go on Pepipoo and perhaps they don't pay after a lengthy forum discussion (in which, I note, such people never acknowledge the the innate wrongness of parking on someone else's land), but at least it discourages them from returning.

Is there any other way of preventing selfish gits parking on your private land, other than via a parking management company? I would happily use an alternative if there was one, but I am not aware of it.

 

[Piff]

If your son parked / trespassed on private property and contravened the regulations of the land's owner, why not do the decent thing and pay the "invoice" rather than waste time "defending" it.

The law of trespass first of all requires a court case to determine if trespass occurred.
If it did occur and "damage" (physical or otherwise) was caused, costs can be awarded to the land owner to rectify the damage.
If no damage was caused then they look at the "gain" to the person trespassing, for example avoiding paying parking charges.
In my sons case the driver of his car had legitimate business on the industrial estate where the car was parked, it caused no physical damage to the land (we have photographic evidence) and caused no obstruction to others. Parking elsewhere on the same estate is free so no gain was made.
Now, put yourself in his shoes - would you pay a £150 "invoice" for that?

Suggest you have a read up on Pepipoo before passing your judgement