Moral dilema - need help/advice

[Martin clk]

Needing some guidance here folks.

My fiance and I took my 8yr old nephew away last weekend to a static home/caravan which had a decking area outside.

We bought a couple of the cheap BBQ's from Tesco, the ones that have legs which raise them up off the ground.

We put the BBQ's on a door matt onto the decking. Unknown to me, one of the legs had collapsed and we noticed, after a few hours, a smell which turned out to be the matt burning and causing a reasonable burn/melting of the decking. It's PVCu.

I contacted the owner with profuse apologies and suggested that I paid the excess of her insurance as it had been an accident. She's refusing to put through her insurance as she doesnt think it would cover it AND her premiums would increase for life. She's also said that she doesnt have insurance for renting it out and that it's only for friends/family. She's actually a client of my sister, who's a beauty therapist. She charged £40per night which she says covers gas/electricity.

I've been told that as it would be a section rather than one board that would need replaced and the time labour in removing the frame to do this, it's likely to be in excess on £1k to fix. it was supposed to cost 9k in install.

I've spoken to friends in business and some landlords who have said that my gesture of covering the excess is more than decent and she should have more cover.

What do you think? What should I do? I can't afford to be paying out over a grand and feel that she could try to claim her insurance. I certainly wouldnt have stayed if I knew that I was not covered should anything have happened.

Cheers
Martin

 

[brucemillar]

The morale of the story is...... She should have had proper insurance and may be in trouble were it to come to the fore that she is renting without it.

Your offer is generous and genuine.

That does not help with the family aspect which is another matter. However as a business deal you are willing to more than meet any obligation on yourself.

 

[Martin clk]

Thanks Bruce!

What is her insurance wont cover it?


Martin

 

[Bosco]

You lit a BBQ on a uPVC deck and expected a doormat to protect it? Then you didn't properly supervise the hot BBQ allowing it to damage the decking? That was very remiss of you and the owner should not suffer financial loss because of your actions. Increased future premiums count as financial loss, paying the excess doesn't absolve you from making good that loss.

The £1000 being bandied about is too "round" for my liking. Why not get an independent quote and see what the repair can be done for? Then pay for the repair.

 

[brucemillar]

Insurance is designed to put you back in he position you were in prior to the claim. She either has the correct insurance in place (her responsibility) or she does not (her loss).

She is taking money by way of rent (that is a business) that money should also cover her insurance as well as gas and electricity.

As BOSCO says you could get another quote, possibly even do the work yourself.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

I'd love to see this £9k uPVC decking, how big was it?

 

[Martin clk]

You lit a BBQ on a uPVC deck and expected a doormat to protect it? Then you didn't properly supervise the hot BBQ allowing it to damage the decking? That was very remiss of you and the owner should not suffer financial loss because of your actions. Increased future premiums count as financial loss, paying the excess doesn't absolve you from making good that loss.

The £1000 being bandied about is too "round" for my liking. Why not get an independent quote and see what the repair can be done for? Then pay for the repair.

Thanks Bosco, a different view to Bruce.

I see your point, although, the £1000 is actually an "at least" figure. If it was going to be £500 then I'd offer to pay. If it is actually going to be greater than that, I don't see why the woman will not look at her insurance. She's clearly making a profit on the rental each night and should have suitable cover for renting it out. What happens if you burn the carpet in a hotel??

The insurance can't be much more than a couple of hundred each year, what would the premiums go up by? £10-£20 per year perhaps??? Again, if she's renting it out, should she not be prepared for "accidents" and protect her investment for this happening?

 

[neilrr]

Most shops have all kinds of insurance yet the rule 'you break it, you buy it' seems to be fairly commonly used & understood.

 

[nigel cross]

Seems strange that a caravan would have £9000 worth of decking, and she charged £40 to cover gas, that would imply to me that her figures are wrong and she was making a business deal at £40 per night

 

[Martin clk]

Insurance is designed to put you back in he position you were in prior to the claim. She either has the correct insurance in place (her responsibility) or she does not (her loss).

She is taking money by way of rent (that is a business) that money should also cover her insurance as well as gas and electricity.

As BOSCO says you could get another quote, possibly even do the work yourself.

Interesting points re responsibility and loss.

I can't get anyone other than the company who installed it as it has a 10yr warranty.

 

[Martin clk]

I'd love to see this £9k uPVC decking, how big was it?

5ft x 7ft roughly

 

[markjay]

1. I think that unless you agreed in advance (as is the case with tenancy agreements) whose responsibility it is to insure the caravan - after all the fire could have consumed the whole lot, meaning far greater damage - then you should share the cost. You could well argue that you were both equally negligent in not raising the insurance issue beforehand. And you have both learnt a lesson for the future.

2. However, this is a reasonable settlement to my mind only if both parties agree - if she doesn't, then I would suggest that you stick to your guns regarding covering the excess only. Being reasonable only makes sense if the other party reciprocates.

3. On another note, if she does decide to claim off her insurance while not disclosing that caravan was being rented-out at the time, then this is fraud. I suggest that you do discourage her from doing so, and in the event that she does anyway, stir clear from any involvement with the insurer.

4. It might be worth trying to approach Tesco - if the issue is one of faulty design, or manufacturing defect, or incorrect instructions, then their insurance may cover this. Said that, I would suggest to avoid the 'compensation culture' (which, from your post, I believe you don't subscribe to anyway) and just make a genuine enquiry with Tesco what procedures they may have in place for these type of eventualities. You never know, they may have had similar complaints from other costumers, and may be aware that there's an issue with their product.

 

[Martin clk]

Most shops have all kinds of insurance yet the rule 'you break it, you buy it' seems to be fairly commonly used & understood.

This was my initial approach Neil, I was more than prepared to rectify the problem till I discussed it and it's now becoming evident that she may be taking advantage of my good nature and that she SHOULD be covered by insurance.

Part of me feels she shouldnt be out of pocket personally but then should I be paying for something that I don't have to if she was covered properly in the first place? Hence why the post title is MORAL DILEMMA.

 

[brucemillar]

Martin

Accidents happen. Insurance is our protection against loss suffered as a result of an accident. This lady must realise there is always a risk. Your point re hotel's is absolutely correct.

I think the issue that you have is not the insurance or not issue. You could simply tell her that you are not prepared to pay anything as it was an accident and she was charging you rent.

I think the issue is how that may be reflected back on your sister and family. I say again that your offer to pay her excess or reasonable costs towards repair is genuine.

I would start to suspect that she has NO insurance hence her reluctance to claim. I am no expert in rental liabilities. If? that is the case then she could be in it and over her head were she to try and pursue the matter by any legal route.

 

[markjay]

What would you do if you test-drove a car that you were looking at buying, and then crashed it on the test drive? There will be no insurance payout (though no criminal offence committed as your own insurance - assuming you have one - would apply to 3rd party cover).

My view that in a case like this both sides are equally responsible for not considering the insurance situation in advance.

 

[neilrr]

This was my initial approach Neil, I was more than prepared to rectify the problem till I discussed it and it's now becoming evident that she may be taking advantage of my good nature and that she SHOULD be covered by insurance.

Part of me feels she shouldnt be out of pocket personally but then should I be paying for something that I don't have to if she was covered properly in the first place? Hence why the post title is MORAL DILEMMA.

Do YOU have insurance, perhaps through your house policy, that covers any accidental damage you may cause?

If you do, no doubt you'd be happy to submit the claim & take any future future premium increases on the chin. If not, why not? Surely it's only responsible to carry such coverage.

 

[wemorgan]

I contacted the owner with profuse apologies and suggested that I paid the excess of her insurance as it had been an accident. She's refusing to put through her insurance as she doesnt think it would cover it AND her premiums would increase for life.

This offer is the one I favour. It's then her decision regarding how to deal with the insurance.

If not, why not? Surely it's only responsible to carry such coverage.

Tongue in cheek surely?

 

[neilrr]

I reckon this one is good for about 250 posts. If MOCAS arrives & starts debating how many angels were evicted from their spot by this fire & Nick chimes in with an American or Traveller conspiracy theory it could run for days.

 

[mattc]

you have made what seems a fair offer, she has not covered herself correctly with insurance. I would leave it hanging now with her to make the next move. as other point out she does not have a leg to stand on..as an aside how often does she let it out?£40/night soon adds up and I bet she does not declare the extra income either if she cannot be bothered to insure it properly. what would she do to protect you if you used the place and died of CO2 poisoning - offer to support any dependants for the rest of her life....

 

[Martin clk]

Do YOU have insurance, perhaps through your house policy, that covers any accidental damage you may cause?

If you do, no doubt you'd be happy to submit the claim & take any future future premium increases on the chin. If not, why not? Surely it's only responsible to carry such coverage.

If my insurance would cover me for this then I'd be happy to make a claim, I hadn't considered that this may be possible, I'm certain it's only for contents however, my factor insurance covers the building.

Worth some investigating though. Cheers !