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Most of your questions answered here

IMHO there's something a bit fishy about that demo. The voiceover says:

"The benefits of using winter tyres in wintery road conditions involving low temperatures, snow, ice, or even just a wet road surface are so pronounced that stopping distances at inner urban speeds can be reduced by a whole car length."

Now we all know that the difference is going to be most pronounced on snow or ice, so it's reasonable to assume that the quoted maximum benefit of "a whole car length" would apply under those circumstances.

The braking test is then done at 45 kph (28 mph), which I guess is mant to be an "inner urban speed". And on a road surface that's clearly not snowy or icy. Yet the difference in braking distance is huge - in fact the voiceover says:

"its stopping distance is twice that of the vehicle fitted with winter tyres"

Huh?
 
I agree Bill. Almost every video tells a slightly different story. Here's another, maybe more relevant to MB owners with large engines.

[YOUTUBE]CJ2uwIHv6eY[/YOUTUBE]
 
Yup there's no doubt that on snow winter tyres can make a huge difference. particularly with RWD.
 
I posted a question in another thread... setting aside ice and snow (and mud), which I am not driving in, there is the obvious issue of rubber compound temperature. Does anyone know - or has seen tests - that show at what ambient temperature does the tyre's rubber actually go below +7 degrees, taking into account that the tyre is getting hot as result of friction and its temperature will obviously be higher of the surrounding air or road surface?

As I don't have winter tyres (I don't actually know what I have to be honest - Dunlop's website unhelpfully just calls them 'Standard tyres' as opposed to 'Winter tyres' - so I guess they mean 'Summer tyres'?), and my car journeys are pretty-much non-essential, I will happily stay at home when the ambient temperatures is unsafe to drive my car - on dry road - but I am struggling to find any information to answer this question.

Most tests - as the one in the first post - show cars driven in extreme temperatures and on ice or snow. I never do that, so this information is irrelevant for me. And I believe there are many motorists in my situation... what we want to know if how safe is it to drive our cars with what the manufacturers call 'Standard tyres' on a clear dry day when the ambient temperature is, say +5 degrees? No one seems to know...

Car manufacturers do not help, either. It seems that all new cars are supplied in the UK with Standard ('Summer'?) tyres, even is supplied in the midst of winter. So the manufacturers clearly prefer to sit on the fence on this one - adding to the general confusion. But based on these tests there seem to be a suggestion that a new Mercedes Benz car supplied to a UK customer in December without winter tyres is not fit for purpose - or do the manufacturer expect the buyer to swap the tyres to winter tyres before driving off the dealer's forecourt?

I find it all very confusing and as said these ice and snow demonstrations do nor help in the least bit to anyone in my situation to reach an informative decision.
 
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I posted a question in another thread... setting aside ice and snow (and mud), which I am not driving in, there is the obvious issue of rubber compound temperature. Does anyone know - or has seen tests - that show at what ambient temperature does the tyre's rubber actually go below +7 degrees, taking into account that the tyre is getting hot as result of friction and its temperature will obviously be higher of the surrounding air or road surface?

Whilst I can't help with any "facts" or scientific evidence all I can submit on tyre temps is subjective. When the air temp was about -2 and the roads clear/dry I drove on a dual carriageway at or about :thumb: 70mph for 30 / 40 mins and my winter tyres where stone cold to the touch straight afterwards.
 
Whilst I can't help with any "facts" or scientific evidence all I can submit on tyre temps is subjective. When the air temp was about -2 and the roads clear/dry I drove on a dual carriageway at or about :thumb: 70mph for 30 / 40 mins and my winter tyres where stone cold to the touch straight afterwards.


OK... so why are we told not to check pressures after having driven the car - on the premise that tyres do heat up - as clearly they don't?
 
I posted a question in another thread... setting aside ice and snow (and mud), which I am not driving in, there is the obvious issue of rubber compound temperature. Does anyone know - or has seen tests - that show at what ambient temperature does the tyre's rubber actually go below +7 degrees, taking into account that the tyre is getting hot as result of friction and its temperature will obviously be higher of the surrounding air or road surface?

To be honest I don't give a rats ass whether the grip of a winter tyre is better or worse on bare tarmac than a summer tyre. What I want from a winter tyre is much more in line with the vid Wemorgan posted, ie capability on snow.

If the tarmac is bare and dry, there'll be grip enough. If it's bare and wet, until I have some feedback to the contrary, I'l assume its greasy from salt and drive accordingly.

But to answer your question MJ, you can answer it yourself. Stick your hand out the window the next time you are driving and wondering. The tyres are passing through the same air at the same speed with the same wind chill, and they are hardly working up a sweat in any of the conditions highlighted above.

But I think the argument is pretty specious. If it is correct, then fair enough, I'l happily be proven wrong, but for me the real benefit from winter tyres has to come when the tarmac is snow covered. Anything else can be adjusted for by the driver with judgement.

PS. Rip off b@stards inflating the cost of winter tyres after failing to stock sufficiently goes beyond free market supply and demand economics straight to the realm of racketeering.
I urge you all never to give one bit more of your business to those indulging in the practice. Their loyalty to you is clearly evident.
 
But I think the argument is pretty specious. If it is correct, then fair enough, I'l happily be proven wrong, but for me the real benefit from winter tyres has to come when the tarmac is snow covered. Anything else can be adjusted for by the driver with judgement.

Thanks Bellow.

That makes perfect sense to me... so as long as I avoid driving on snow and ice (which I do), the so-called Summer tyres will be fine for me.

I do wish the message regarding this was clearer though.
 
If it helps, I've been driving my summer-tyred (Continental SportContact 3, to be precise) SLK on clear roads at ambient temperatures of between -2 and +2 Centigrade this week, and have not had to adjust my driving style in any way whatsoever. I have avoided using the edges of roads where snow had collected, as I know the car would lose traction there.

I also had the slowest drive of my life - about 2-3mph over a single-track road that was still covered in a mixture of compacted snow, slush and ice, with a lake on either side and no kerbs or barriers. :eek: I could feel the car sliding under me on the approach to this section, and I knew that had I gone any faster through it and veered off course, I'd have been heading nose-first for the water with no idea whether the car would have found enough grip to overcome its momentum. The van driver coming the other way, who'd pulled in up ahead to let me through, didn't look too impressed at the amount of time I'd taken to reach and pass him, but I'm hoping he understood and took a similarly cautious approach through that section.

That was the only time this week I found myself wishing I'd put some winter tyres on the car before the supply dried up.

On your previous point, tyres do tend to become hot to the touch after a sustained high-speed run, but perhaps this just isn't noticeable when the ambient temperature is so low.
 
MJ. One of the things I've noticed that supposedly gives all-season and winter tyres their supposed superior grip is the inclusion of silica in their mix. Silica has been a key ingredient in the formulation of summer tyres even slightly focused towards performance for years now.
I use Michelin Exaltos as a summer tyre and the wet weather grip is exceptional, only requiring a few miles of driving to build a little temperature into them.
In winter, that temperature is easily realised. When they do slip and slide it's as likely as not its the greasy salt that's the cause and can any tyre find purchase on such a surface? Additionally they give superb feedback as to the grip level available that any slip is easily avoided.
Hence my reluctance to drive with anything else fitted. But I suspect a long winter of untreated roads and the farm track I have to negotiate mean that this year, I'l be fitting some winter tyres. Bizarrely, I'm more likely to get caught out in a slushy car park as on the roads unless I do!
 
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Most tests - as the one in the first post - show cars driven in extreme temperatures and on ice or snow. I never do that, so this information is irrelevant for me. And I believe there are many motorists in my situation... what we want to know if how safe is it to drive our cars with what the manufacturers call 'Standard tyres' on a clear dry day when the ambient temperature is, say +5 degrees? No one seems to know...
I'm sure the answer would be "it depends" :)

"Normal" tyres vary hugely, with the most obvious compromise being grip (soft compound) versus longevity (hard compound). You only have to look at the results of group tests to see the variation in wet and dry braking distances (under 'normal' temperatures). My guess would be that some of the softer/grippier premium tyres would be pretty OK at lower temperatures, and that some of the 'economy' ones might be a bit dodgy.

This is one of the reasons I'm a bit sceptical about statistics / comparisons etc. between winter and 'normal' tyres on surfaces other than snow/ice (where there's no doubt about their benefit) - I suspect the outcome depends a lot on which specific tyre is used (as well as how much tread it has ...). When you hear quotes like "performance is reduced below +7C" the key question (which I've never seen answered) is "by how much?". It's also important to remember that "performance is reduced" in the wet as soon as a tyre has less than maximum tread (see Tyres stopping distances - as tread depth reduces so required stopping distances increases). So if we all aspired to maximum safety at all times we'd be throwing our tyres away every couple of thousand miles, as well as chosing the brand & model based SOLELY on grip (not cost / noise / life / etc.).

In practical terms, I've driven all three of our vehicles at pretty low temperatures without any noticeable difference in grip. By that I mean no ABS cutting in under 'firm' braking, no sign of ESP/traction control intervention under hard acceleration. So on main roads in good conditions (other than being cold) I'm happy to drive reasonably normally. Obviously little-used side roads are a different matter ... you could arrive at a bend and find the road iced over, in which case you are potentially in trouble (even with winter tyres, I suspect).

Having said that, I was in a large and deserted car park last Sunday morning. It was completely frosted over (almost looked like snow), and the temperature was -8C. I did some experimental hard braking on that (this was in our Audi A4), and while I could get the ABS to intervene it was nowhere near as slippery as I'd expected it to be. That was on Avon ZV5s, which are described by the makers as "Performance – General Purpose" with "Outstanding grip in wet and dry conditions" and "Excellent braking performance, wet or dry".

I've driven the SL at -12C (on a bright, clear, dry day), and even with over 300 bhp going to the rear wheels there was no evidence of loss of grip when pulling out normally at junctions etc. However I was well aware of the risk of ice so in general I did drive it quite conservatively.

The Vito (440 Nm torque and RWD) has been driven in all conditions (other than snow & ice) and has always shown great grip on the factory Continentals. In fact I don't think I've ever had the ESP or ABS cut in. I've also driven it on unrestricted autobahn at +34C ambient (tyre temp. obviously much higher), and I'm not sure how well soft 'all season' tyres would perform under those conditions?
 
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Thanks MOCAS and BTB 500.

I think that the emerging conclusion that M+S tyres are just that - for mud and snow - and those of us who do not use their vehicles on such surfaces will do well with 'Standard' tyres all year long - dry or wet, warm or cold.

That makes a lot of sense to me. And it also explains why the suggestion to force all UK drivers to drive with M+S tyres from October to April is unnecessary just as it is impractical.
 
OK... so why are we told not to check pressures after having driven the car - on the premise that tyres do heat up - as clearly they don't?

No idea, I'm no expert - but I know that +/- 8 psi across 4 wheels make sod all difference when driving normally.
 
My personal experiance

My old man got stuck on a slight gradient the other day in the snow. Seriously ****** off he was ranting and raving about how the Volvo is the worst car he has ever had in the snow etc. He actually wrote off his last V70 last year whilst towing his massive trailer he uses for his travelling pantomime!
Since then I have been trying to convince him that It's not the car that is crap but the summer tyres. This latest incident finally made him go out and buy some winter tyres.

The trouble was, so had everybody else and it took the tyre garage 2 days of searching the country to finally track some down in the correct size. And they only managed to get two! There is a countrywide shortage of the bloody things. You'd have thought after last winter the suppliers would have pulled their fingers out in readiness for this year

So he had them fitted to the front as the V70 D5 is front wheel drive.
I drove it on the old summer tyres and it was indeed totally pants in the cold wet and snowy conditions. But now, what a transformation I am seriously impressed. I was expecting them to be a little better but not this good.

I have been out tonight trying to get the thing stuck and simply couldn't. On the compacted snow and ice they just grip and grip some more. I took the car up some very steep hills covered in the compacted icy white stuff without even a murmer from the tyres. I didn't even bother to put the gearbox in winter mode.
With the summer tyres on the ABS and ASC systems went mad as soon as you touched the brake pedal. With the winters on it stops amazingly well without any of the dash warning lights going crazy. The only problem i found was that because the car still has summer tyres on the rear, the rear wheels lock up whilst the fronts just grip(he has two more winters on order thankfully)which is an odd feeling!

Its not just on the white stuff either. They grip and stop so much better in the wet too.

Very impressive. I just wish I could afford some for the merc
 
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I can understand those who made a journey before any inset of extreme weather conditions attempting to make a journey home or to a safe place however, we have now bared the brunt of such weather for nearly two weeks yet there are those who are prepared to risk all driving in conditions that are clearly dangerous to themselves and others like innocent pedestrians. If the road conditions are that bad in that you have to make a journey at 2 to 3 mph avoiding lakes on either side without any barriers or kerbs to assist then whose the idiot without meaning to sound obnoxious or cause offence.

Is such a journey worth making risking so much?
 
Is such a journey worth making risking so much?

Only one person can answer that...

But if the alternative is to stay and home wondering if starvation or hypothermia will be the cause of my death for the want of food and coal, then I'll be out there. But I don't expect many pedestrians will.
 

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