Motor bike chit chat

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glojo

Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Messages
14,652
Location
Torquay
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S211 Sprinter 213CDI, & the new T-class
Into the lions den:

20th Century biking observations

When we are laying on the tarmac, looking up at the clouds and trying to think how we got their; how many times do we hear motorists say, “I honestly didn’t see you guv!”

I am now really going to put the cat among the pigeons and make a few controversial points.

The car driver that claims they did not see the motor cyclist is a plonker!

Correct??

They pulled out of a junction directly into the path of an oncoming motorcyclist, giving the biker no chance to stop. This then resulted in a dented car, badly damaged motor cycle, and who knows what injuries to the biker.

Now I'm for it:
The motor cyclist is a plonker!

What!!! I hear you all screaming. I’m stark raving bonkers, how can we say the rider is a plonker, or even suggest the accident\incident might be down to them? Bike on main road, car pulls out of side road…… car drivers fault (full stop, period)

Right, let me explain and please try to see where I am coming from.

First off

Positioning

When in a town, city or urban area the bike rider should always be in the centre of their lane, there might be exceptions, but when in town it is always best to put the bike right in the centre of the lane you are travelling in. The reason for this is all about survival. If we keep closer to the kerb then we invite other road users to pull alongside, not overtake, but push us closer to the kerb.

If we travel out to the nearside of the centre-line which at times will offer far better visibility, then we are inviting other road users to pull alongside our nearside and this time shove us out further into the centre of the road.

Why I am talking about positioning?

If the car driver did not see us, did we see them? Think about this. Did we see the car approaching the junction? In towns or cities it is extremely rare for a junction to be completely obscured, extremely rare. There will always be sufficient distance for us to see an approaching vehicles and hopefully we can see where I am coming from. If we failed to see the offending vehicle (note I say offending) then are we as much of a plonker as they are? Being in the centre of our lane will open up any junctions and give us better visibility into them. Out in the sticks we would be taking full advantage of our lane and positioning the bike to always get the maximum view (unless the road is busy) but in town it is always safest to occupy the centre of the road. Too close to the kerb narrows down any view into the nearside junction. Too far out will allow vehicles to come up our inside, but as an instructor I would suggest this is flexible dependant on the situation, traffic etc.

By looking into a junction we can very slightly adjust our speed thus avoiding our bike being at the wrong place at the wrong time. we can also see if the brake lights of the car are illuminating; a very subtle look to see if the car driver is paying attention, any clue is useful just to make sure the driver is slowing down. If the view is deep enough then a gentle increase in speed might allow us to pass the junction just before the car arrives. This point is difficult to write about but extremely easy to explain, or demonstrate.

Being in the right is plain crazy if it kills us, "I've got right of way, the car should have stopped!" what kind of rider is it that rides straight into the side of an oncoming vehicle?

My answer is…… An untrained one.:eek: :eek:

Remember we are talking about being in town where our speed should be very slowish :devil: ;) and we are paying full attention to our surroundings.

Riding bikes around a race track is completely different from riding a bike on a busy urban road. The two skills are different and would the track rider be criticised if they start regularly looking behind them, or indeed worrying about all the other track users? A thousand apologies if I appear to be suggesting that there is no skill required to ride a bike around a race track:eek: :eek: That is NOT what I am saying, nor suggesting, nor even thinking. Mega respect to all riders that can throw their bikes around race tracks, or perish the thought.... The Isle of Man :eek: :eek: :bannana: :bannana:

An advanced motor cycle course is not about slow riding, or riding like a pansy; it is about defensive riding, being safe, surviving and most important enjoying ourselves. Advanced riding courses should spend a good deal of time out of towns and on roads where ‘some’ of the bikes potential can be used. Advanced riding will always be about forward observation, anticipation, planning and… making progress. All these skills must be taught, we cannot brush up on techniques we haven’t learnt. And I would cite the following. I have owned a computer for years; the first being a 486DX with Windows version 3. Yes I could use my ‘autoexec.bat’, or my ‘config.sys’ BUT the computer geeks on this forum have forgotten more than I will ever know regarding computers. I have possibly used a computer far, far longer than these experts, but they have been educated into how to use this wizardry. The same applies to both driving and riding; the length of time does not equate to skills or knowledge.

I have heard comments about how I might get cancer, or I might get run over and yes they are right, but please, please note the word ‘might’ Anything ‘might’ happen and it is crazy to worry ourselves silly over something we have no control of. When we get married and have families then unfortunately we must\should think of the greater good and think about our responsibilities. You will definitely have a motor cycle accident if you ride a bike on the highways and bye-ways.

I fully accept we might get a horrible disease, or we might get struck by lightning and yes life is for living however…

BUT ......... I can guarantee that if you’re a motor cyclist, you will have an accident. I cannot guarantee you will get struck by lightning, I cannot guarantee a plank will fall on your head, but I can guarantee you will have an accident. By investing in an advanced riding course you are simply lessening the odds and honing your riding skills and in the process you will become a better rider..

Just remember when the guilty car driver says, “I didn’t see you” Try to think why you did not see them!

Cop out
I have no knowledge regarding individual teaching skills and any course will only ever be as good as the instructor, but don’t be worried if this instructor is a traffic copper. Some of them might be human. We had one down here that was a really nice, crazy person that used his official bike for teaching and it never failed to impress when he regularly stood up on the saddle whilst travelling at a sedate pace (on private property)

This rambling post is me throwing observations into the pot and shooting the breeze. It is not a: ‘This is the right way, and everything else is the Wrong way’ type post. Those reading it are hopefully bikers and I fear I might have given the impression I was anti bike.

Putting pen to paper is never the best way of having a discussion, but for me it is the only way and hopefully folks will read this post in the spirit it is meant. Times may well have changed, advice, or riding procedures should also adapt and nothing should ever be black or white. Any observations would be appreciated and as a final two Penarth.

Are we still being taught to only use our side of the carriageway?

It’s a pity Plodd is not posting as he would no doubt be able to offer some very valuable advice.

I know we have bikers that ride in London and clearly there will be times when it is a jungle, but never assume other road users have seen you, never willingly place youself in danger. Always assume that every other rode user is both blind and daft. Think bike, think survival :devil: :devil: :D

Kind regards to all or bikers
Yours very sincerely
John the ex biker (nearly typed bilker) :eek: :D
 
Hmmm, you're putting me off getting my licence ;)
There is nothing more exhilarating than riding a bike and riding it well. I miss my bike and must confess to only ever having one accident, and that was when I was a seventeen year old jack the lad :devil:

I miss my bike
I miss my bike

regards
John
 
When I got my first motor, a close friend who'd been riding a few years told me, "Be aware of every intersection, cross road, driveway and alley, and be aware that there isn't just a car there whose driver doesn't see you, but who is actively and intentionally trying to kill you. Never, ever, ever let your guard down, or one day one of them will complete their mission. You can never ride any faster than you may be required to stop, and there is no road where you can't see."
Over here, we also have the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, who run rider training courses for very little cost and which will net you a discount on your insurance policy.
My two downs were from too much speed in a slow corner, and another which turned out to have gravel scattered across it at night. The broken shoulder didn't hurt as much as the dent in my ego.
 
As another ex biker John, I agree fully with what you say. I was an instructor in the RAC/ACU training scheme and our chief instructor was the head instructor in the local police force. He taught us much like your comments and he certainly helped me ride more safely.

We instructors used to go to races etc. and anyone who thinks riding safely invloves riding slow is very mistaken.

Reading the road, defensive riding and treating all others on the road as blind idiots leads to a longer accident free riding career.

Look at their eyes, directly or in their mirror means they probably have seen you.

It's dry, the sun is out and am now off to look at bike adverts.

John
 
Good post John and in most cases I agree with you.

There are other times however when it is impossible to read ahead the potential of another vehicle.

An oncoming car with clear visibility for a mile ahead deciding to turn right directly across your path or passing a junction where the car pulls out into you as you approach whilst maintaining eye contact with you...

Both of the above have happened to me on numerous occasions.

That 1% of the time there's absolutely nothing you could do have done better.

The other 99% although technically its the other parties fault, the rider should think long and hard about whether they could have avoided the situation as the likelihood is he/she probably could/should have anticipated the incident.

When were talking flesh and bones, rather than fender bender, the stakes are so much higher than no claims bonuses so the technicalities of who's to blame financially are largely irrelevant, one must avoid being hit at all costs.
 
An oncoming car with clear visibility for a mile ahead deciding to turn right directly across your path or passing a junction where the car pulls out into you as you approach whilst maintaining eye contact with you...
Excellent point and it would be stupid to disagree.

I have personal experience of a highly trained biker being killed when they were overtaking a car. This idiot decided to turn right without looking or indicating. The rider had no chance.

We mustn't get too put off by the 'What ifs' but hopefully we will try to learn as many skills as possible to better educate ourselves.

I loved my bike and thoroughly enjoyed pasing on the skills that had been past to me. It was really rewarding seeing how riders improved and also learnt how to make progress :devil: :) (Man and machine as one:D )
 
Well.. I agree totally regarding road positioning and defensive riding. I've never taken advanced road training (read Roadcraft when I passed my test a while back) but thats about it.

In my case, although I was riding at the legal limit in the middle of the road with my headlight on, a car driver pulled out of a side road of a terraced street, stopped and then continued to pull out when I was in the process of riding around her.

My mistake was not being alert enough to have anticipated her simply not seeing me until too late as there was warning in the way of a parked transit van in the bus lane preceding the junction. Perhaps I should have slowed and moved out slightly to make myself more visible and to increase my field of vision, given the restriction caused by the parked van - why didn't I?

I've been riding around London since March 2002, had plenty of near misses but until the other day managed to stay upright. To maintain the level of concentration required to anticipate such events is a pretty big ask given I ride day in day out city streets full of parked cars, moving cars, speeding cars, buses, trams, kids, bikes, dogs, pigeons, holes in the road etc. etc.

One thing track riding and city riding have in common are the constant and continous processes of the brain which monitor and analyse the information presented in order to decide what inputs to put into the bike - the problem with London is the sheer amount of information to take in and process and the size of the city (I used to find that when riding from North to South London, after about 25 mins to 1/2 hour of riding my concentration would suffer).

I was about 20 minutes into a 1/2 hour journey from Croydon to Soho and if I remember correctly my mind was switching between the meeting before and the next meeting, rather than my bike riding - much the same as most days where I rely on my unconscious brain to do the thinking for me.

I wasn't doing 120mph over a blind crest marked with a warning triangle, nor have I ever had cause to blame invisible diesel for misjudging a corner. Lapse of concentration, maybe, my fault someone did something odd which lead to an incident, not really, could I have done more to avoid the collision, probably.

Untrained, yes - Plonker? Not really :confused:


Ade
 
Reading the road, defensive riding and treating all others on the road as blind idiots leads to a longer accident free riding career.

I miss my bike. It was great expediting cross country journeys - even when it was wet.

I briefly considered a BMW R1100 or a Pan European a while back but decided I have no inclination to go back on two wheels again. I got knocked off four times in nine years - two of those occasions I was rear-ended when stationary. I don't miss puttting in ear plugs when going on any long journey.

Drivers today I think are better disciplined in general than they used to be but conversely in many ways even more stupid. They have no idea about reading the road. I see a lot of poorly ridden bikes too.
 
Hi Ade,
I deliberately started a new thread because your incident made me think about the vulnerability of bikers.

I thought it would be rude, ignorant and very bad mannered to make any comments like this on your post because folks might wrongly have assumed my remarks were in anyway directed at you.

In this post I deliberately made mention of London and stated it can be a jungle. My post was meant to stir riders into thinking and if I have done that then fine, but it was certainly not directed at you as an individual and don't forget I have NO IDEA of the individual circumstances of your incident.

We are going to start slipping down a slippery slope debating an incident where an idiot pulled out in front of you, but remember if the road was as busy as you describe, with all the hazards your describing then may I very very respectfully suggest that there is no law that dictates we must travel at the very maximum legal speed. I have NO IDEA of how busy the road was that you are describing but to quote your good self:

I ride day in day out city streets full of parked cars, moving cars, speeding cars, buses, trams, kids, bikes, dogs, pigeons, holes in the road etc. etc.

I also accept you may well have slowed down for the above conditions, I ahve no idea and I sympathise with you BUT...... May I please very, very politely suggest it would be nice if we could keep our head clear and leave the office work for the office and concentrate fully on the road. Riding a bike deserves nothing less.

Living in the West Country I never got the opportunity to take pupils through that fine city, but we would have nice ride across Dartmoor and then return via either the city of Plymouth or Exeter. (Not the same as London)

I NEVER stopped learning when either riding a bike, driving a car or lorry. We can all hone our skills and hopefully the wise among us will learn from our mistakes, or better still, the mistakes of others.

You were the victim, but as bike riders we are vulnerable and is it better to perhaps slow down before we are mown down :)

Would you be happy if school children were just leaving school, the roads were extremely busy with parents parking their vehicles, crossing roads with their offspring and some 'plonker' in a CL55AMG came flying by sticking to the maximum legal speed limit? (Hopefully you don't own a CL55AMG)

I take on-board what your saying but please try to read my post in the spirit it is meant.

I hope my CL55 example is not to OTT, it is meant to highlight that when roads are busy we should consider slowing down?

Your a good bloke, I respect you and this is not an anti Ade post. Forget about your incident and think solely about what I have said ;)

I cannot recommend an advanced riding course strongly enough, but it needs good instructors for maximum benefit.

pm on the way regarding the last but one paragraph

Regards
John
 
No worries John, I'm being a bit prickly - crap day, anyway footie's on. ;)


Ade
 
I am a biker and I drive a cage.
I believe I drive my cage more competently because I am a biker.
I have had one accident (touch wood) in 38 years on the road.
Four years ago travelling well within the speed limit on the southbound A4 just north of Hindhead, a driver heading North suddenly and without warning turned across my path - for reasons never established by the coroner and the police investigators. I was pretty shook up, the Merc was a right off and if I had been on the bike (there is absolutely zero chance of avoiding an accident of this nature) I would be dead.

Do I still drive a cage? Yes -because they are an essential tool to participate in our modern society (but uber boring).
Do I still ride a bike? Yes they are way way more fun than a cage!

Yes advanced training is essential IAM/Roadcraft whatever, but you know it is only the biker experience that really teaches you road sense. Cagers lose their connection with the environment and are lulled into a false sense of security by so called safety devices (belts,airbags, crumple zones blah blah).

The standard of driving would be far higher if the route to a car driving licence could only be achieved via the full motorcycle licence!!
 
Last edited:
I'm with Norman on this, riding a bike has definitely made me a better driver. For a start you are aware of what a bike can and cannot do - you can also often assess their likely behaviour from the bike, clothing and riding style.

Several times I've managed to spot an impending idiotic move and take avoiding action...unsurprisingly it's normally the weekend warriors on sportsbikes.
 
Food for thought

I'm not one of those old foggies that go on about the good old days and this is a question, nothing more.

When I first rode a motorcycle crash helmets were not mandatory. No one but no one rode with their headlight on, (although some riders did at night :devil: :devil: :D)

Leathers were something worn solely by cows and bulls although I always wore gloves. My question is: are bikers more vunerable today, is it a different attitude by bike riders. More vehicles on the road etc etc

Here is an interesting statistic:

Of all the motorcyclist road deaths in Essex, very few involve female riders. This is despite the fact that statistically, females account for 20% of motorcyclists on the road.

Motor cycle figures Link

I still miss my bike :devil: :)
 
I'm with Norman on this, riding a bike has definitely made me a better driver. For a start you are aware of what a bike can and cannot do - you can also often assess their likely behaviour from the bike, clothing and riding style.

Several times I've managed to spot an impending idiotic move and take avoiding action...unsurprisingly it's normally the weekend warriors on sportsbikes.
As usual Norman has raised an excellent point, but there are any number of drivers that would not ride a bike for all the tea in China. Should we refuse to allow them to have a licence? (question)

I hate it when I hear a driver say they never saw a motor cyclist. In this modern age where all bikes will have their heradlight on, there is no excuse.

Regards
John
 
Into the lions den:

20th Century biking observations

When we are laying on the tarmac, looking up at the clouds and trying to think how we got their; how many times do we hear motorists say, “I honestly didn’t see you guv!”

I am now really going to put the cat among the pigeons and make a few controversial points.

The car driver that claims they did not see the motor cyclist is a plonker!

Correct??

They pulled out of a junction directly into the path of an oncoming motorcyclist, giving the biker no chance to stop. This then resulted in a dented car, badly damaged motor cycle, and who knows what injuries to the biker.

Now I'm for it:
The motor cyclist is a plonker!

What!!! I hear you all screaming. I’m stark raving bonkers, how can we say the rider is a plonker, or even suggest the accident\incident might be down to them? Bike on main road, car pulls out of side road…… car drivers fault (full stop, period)

Right, let me explain and please try to see where I am coming from.

First off

Positioning

When in a town, city or urban area the bike rider should always be in the centre of their lane, there might be exceptions, but when in town it is always best to put the bike right in the centre of the lane you are travelling in. The reason for this is all about survival. If we keep closer to the kerb then we invite other road users to pull alongside, not overtake, but push us closer to the kerb.

If we travel out to the nearside of the centre-line which at times will offer far better visibility, then we are inviting other road users to pull alongside our nearside and this time shove us out further into the centre of the road.

Why I am talking about positioning?

If the car driver did not see us, did we see them? Think about this. Did we see the car approaching the junction? In towns or cities it is extremely rare for a junction to be completely obscured, extremely rare. There will always be sufficient distance for us to see an approaching vehicles and hopefully we can see where I am coming from. If we failed to see the offending vehicle (note I say offending) then are we as much of a plonker as they are? Being in the centre of our lane will open up any junctions and give us better visibility into them. Out in the sticks we would be taking full advantage of our lane and positioning the bike to always get the maximum view (unless the road is busy) but in town it is always safest to occupy the centre of the road. Too close to the kerb narrows down any view into the nearside junction. Too far out will allow vehicles to come up our inside, but as an instructor I would suggest this is flexible dependant on the situation, traffic etc.

By looking into a junction we can very slightly adjust our speed thus avoiding our bike being at the wrong place at the wrong time. we can also see if the brake lights of the car are illuminating; a very subtle look to see if the car driver is paying attention, any clue is useful just to make sure the driver is slowing down. If the view is deep enough then a gentle increase in speed might allow us to pass the junction just before the car arrives. This point is difficult to write about but extremely easy to explain, or demonstrate.

Being in the right is plain crazy if it kills us, "I've got right of way, the car should have stopped!" what kind of rider is it that rides straight into the side of an oncoming vehicle?

My answer is…… An untrained one.:eek: :eek:

Remember we are talking about being in town where our speed should be very slowish :devil: ;) and we are paying full attention to our surroundings.

Riding bikes around a race track is completely different from riding a bike on a busy urban road. The two skills are different and would the track rider be criticised if they start regularly looking behind them, or indeed worrying about all the other track users? A thousand apologies if I appear to be suggesting that there is no skill required to ride a bike around a race track:eek: :eek: That is NOT what I am saying, nor suggesting, nor even thinking. Mega respect to all riders that can throw their bikes around race tracks, or perish the thought.... The Isle of Man :eek: :eek: :bannana: :bannana:

An advanced motor cycle course is not about slow riding, or riding like a pansy; it is about defensive riding, being safe, surviving and most important enjoying ourselves. Advanced riding courses should spend a good deal of time out of towns and on roads where ‘some’ of the bikes potential can be used. Advanced riding will always be about forward observation, anticipation, planning and… making progress. All these skills must be taught, we cannot brush up on techniques we haven’t learnt. And I would cite the following. I have owned a computer for years; the first being a 486DX with Windows version 3. Yes I could use my ‘autoexec.bat’, or my ‘config.sys’ BUT the computer geeks on this forum have forgotten more than I will ever know regarding computers. I have possibly used a computer far, far longer than these experts, but they have been educated into how to use this wizardry. The same applies to both driving and riding; the length of time does not equate to skills or knowledge.

I have heard comments about how I might get cancer, or I might get run over and yes they are right, but please, please note the word ‘might’ Anything ‘might’ happen and it is crazy to worry ourselves silly over something we have no control of. When we get married and have families then unfortunately we must\should think of the greater good and think about our responsibilities. You will definitely have a motor cycle accident if you ride a bike on the highways and bye-ways.

I fully accept we might get a horrible disease, or we might get struck by lightning and yes life is for living however…

BUT ......... I can guarantee that if you’re a motor cyclist, you will have an accident. I cannot guarantee you will get struck by lightning, I cannot guarantee a plank will fall on your head, but I can guarantee you will have an accident. By investing in an advanced riding course you are simply lessening the odds and honing your riding skills and in the process you will become a better rider..

Just remember when the guilty car driver says, “I didn’t see you” Try to think why you did not see them!

Cop out
I have no knowledge regarding individual teaching skills and any course will only ever be as good as the instructor, but don’t be worried if this instructor is a traffic copper. Some of them might be human. We had one down here that was a really nice, crazy person that used his official bike for teaching and it never failed to impress when he regularly stood up on the saddle whilst travelling at a sedate pace (on private property)

This rambling post is me throwing observations into the pot and shooting the breeze. It is not a: ‘This is the right way, and everything else is the Wrong way’ type post. Those reading it are hopefully bikers and I fear I might have given the impression I was anti bike.

Putting pen to paper is never the best way of having a discussion, but for me it is the only way and hopefully folks will read this post in the spirit it is meant. Times may well have changed, advice, or riding procedures should also adapt and nothing should ever be black or white. Any observations would be appreciated and as a final two Penarth.

Are we still being taught to only use our side of the carriageway?

It’s a pity Plodd is not posting as he would no doubt be able to offer some very valuable advice.

I know we have bikers that ride in London and clearly there will be times when it is a jungle, but never assume other road users have seen you, never willingly place youself in danger. Always assume that every other rode user is both blind and daft. Think bike, think survival :devil: :devil: :D

Kind regards to all or bikers
Yours very sincerely
John the ex biker (nearly typed bilker) :eek: :D



.........:confused:
 
snipped- but there are any number of drivers that would not ride a bike for all the tea in China. Should we refuse to allow them to have a licence? (question)

Well 'we' would not have to refuse them - they would have made a rational decision and exercised choice.:cool: ;)

On the SMIDSY issue - in their efforts to meet NCAP 5 star crash performance all car manufacturers have increased the scantling of their windscreen pillars - thus increasing the 'blind spot'. Interestingly increasing the safety of the cage driver at the expense of the rider!
 
On the SMIDSY issue - !
:devil: :D :D There's me dosed up to the eyeballs on medication and I figured out what SMIDSY stands for :bannana: :bannana: I'm mega impressed with myself.

I'm sorry but I still have no sypathy about increases in size of any pillar, nor do I agree with your other conclusion :devil: :D. Should we also say that everyone should pass the LGV (HGV) class 1 test just so they can appreciate the difficulties of driving a lorry. :D :D Then we would have the PSV brigade, not to mention tractor drivers.
 
:snipped ..Should we also say that everyone should pass the LGV (HGV) class 1 test just so they can appreciate the difficulties of driving a lorry. :D :D Then we would have the PSV brigade, not to mention tractor drivers.
Nope thats your meds affecting your judgement - mine was a serious proposal that has merit and could/would work.:devil: :D
 

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