Motorway lane discipline - would these help?

[WDB124066]

The only problem with them is that they are in English, Brail may be more effective....

 

[swithin]

In Scotland they used to use the Ferranti board tell you to return to the left lane after overtaking in order to limit frustration of other drivers, or something like that.
I think we can blame the brainless who religiously follow their sat nav instructions to the letter as when you are coming up to an exit junction the amount of morons who will move across lanes as their sat nav says "keep right" is increasing.
I would like camera's on bridges utilised more and if you are caught going through three of them in any of the outside lanes when there is nothing in the driving lane you are stopped, fined very heavily, points and made to retake your test.
Also think the government could help a lot more by having adverts in the evening showing the effects of a front blowout in the three lanes and your chances of survival in each lane.

 

[geraldrobins]

I live in the South West just and daily over the past 4-5 years drove from Gloucester to Worcester and Bromsgrove and in my experience drivers 'hogging' the middle lane was and is an infrequent occurrence. I appreciate others have different experiences, and that a lane held up on a busy motorway can be very frustrating.
What I do find dangerous is people that overtake you and then cut in front of you at less than a safe distance.

 

[st13phil]

This is another unfortunate by-product of the policy to cede road traffic enforcement duties to automated systems and remote surveillance instead of human TrafPol patrols. Part of the benefit of TrafPol on the ground is the education aspect - the "words of advice" given at the roadside when the behaviour of a driver was inappropriate, but didn't merit further action - which has now pretty much disappeared.

France and Spain still have routine presence of police on traffic enforcement duties and I've witnessed them actively addressing the problem of lane hogging and drivers who fail to return to the empty lane to their right after overtaking. Neither country seems to have the same sort of problem with it that we do in the UK.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Personally I find this far more annoying on dual carriageways where you've no faster lane to get past the person. I regularly see people that sit in the right lane when there's nothing in the left remotely close or even visible.

I normally give them a period of time to realise they are holding me up and to move. If not then I'll probably flash them if they are going quite a bit below the speed limit. If they still do nothing then I'll undertake them. They don't really leave you any other choice. It's extremely annoying that I'm forced to break the Highway Code because they also are breaking the Highway Code.

Just talking about it makes my blood boil. I wonder if undertake them and then pull back into the right lane and slow down, what would they do? Try and undertake me or just sit in the same lane and follow me? Honestly it's not rocket science.

 

[geraldrobins]

Personally I find this far more annoying on dual carriageways where you've no faster lane to get past the person. I regularly see people that sit in the right lane when there's nothing in the left remotely close or even visible.

I normally give them a period of time to realise they are holding me up and to move. If not then I'll probably flash them if they are going quite a bit below the speed limit. If they still do nothing then I'll undertake them. They don't really leave you any other choice. It's extremely annoying that I'm forced to break the Highway Code because they also are breaking the Highway Code.

Just talking about it makes my blood boil. I wonder if undertake them and then pull back into the right lane and slow down, what would they do? Try and undertake me or just sit in the same lane and follow me? Honestly it's not rocket science.

I understand its annoying but you're not being forced to break the highway code. Just be patient.

 

[Bellow]

Personally I find this far more annoying on dual carriageways where you've no faster lane to get past the person. I regularly see people that sit in the right lane when there's nothing in the left remotely close or even visible.

I normally give them a period of time to realise they are holding me up and to move. If not then I'll probably flash them if they are going quite a bit below the speed limit. If they still do nothing then I'll undertake them. They don't really leave you any other choice. It's extremely annoying that I'm forced to break the Highway Code because they also are breaking the Highway Code.

Given the above scenario I will pull along side on their left and shrug my shoulders when they look over then lift off a touch and fall back slightly. If they take the opportunity to move over, fine, I'll then pass on the right. If they don't, I'll draw level again - then just pass on their left. Sod them.

Just talking about it makes my blood boil. I wonder if undertake them and then pull back into the right lane and slow down, what would they do? Try and undertake me or just sit in the same lane and follow me? Honestly it's not rocket science.

Anyone's guess as to what they would do. There's no predicting an idiot's next move!

 

[Giantvanman]

Personally I find this far more annoying on dual carriageways where you've no faster lane to get past the person. I regularly see people that sit in the right lane when there's nothing in the left remotely close or even visible.

I normally give them a period of time to realise they are holding me up and to move. If not then I'll probably flash them if they are going quite a bit below the speed limit. If they still do nothing then I'll undertake them. They don't really leave you any other choice. It's extremely annoying that I'm forced to break the Highway Code because they also are breaking the Highway Code.

Just talking about it makes my blood boil. I wonder if undertake them and then pull back into the right lane and slow down, what would they do? Try and undertake me or just sit in the same lane and follow me? Honestly it's not rocket science.

Your tag is FastLaneJB; do you spend a lot of time in the overtaking only lane?

 

[FastLaneJB]

Your tag is FastLaneJB; do you spend a lot of time in the overtaking only lane?

Only when needs be. I might be a BMW driver currently but I stay in the left most lane I can based on traffic and use my indicators at well

Having said that, there's a lot of slow drivers so the overtaking lanes get quite a bit of use. That isn't even talking about breaking the speed limit but just doing the speed limit.

I'd say half the problem there is the insistence of having speedos give the wrong speed. My current car is actually spot on with the speedo vs GPS or at least as close as damn it. My wife's car you virtually need 80mph on the speedo before your doing 70mph based of a GPS. So I think some people think they are doing the speed limit but are almost 10mph under when you get to 70mph roads. Everyone's is different as well so it creates this constant differing of speeds when I suspect most people are just trying to do the speed limit. This probably causes traffic, road rage and all sorts of other road problems.

I understand its annoying but you're not being forced to break the highway code. Just be patient.

So say someone is doing 50mph on a 70mph dual carriageway road and sat in the fast lane, your just going to sit behind them for how long? 5 miles, 20 miles, until they turn off? I think sooner or later most people would flash their lights, honk their horn or something. That person who's breaking the Highway Code is inconviencing you. Maybe making you late for a meeting / work or forcing you to have to start off earlier so you can just patiently sit behind them driving slowly.

 

[geraldrobins]

Only when needs be. I might be a BMW driver currently but I stay in the left most lane I can based on traffic and use my indicators at well

Having said that, there's a lot of slow drivers so the overtaking lanes get quite a bit of use. That isn't even talking about breaking the speed limit but just doing the speed limit.

I'd say half the problem there is the insistence of having speedos give the wrong speed. My current car is actually spot on with the speedo vs GPS or at least as close as damn it. My wife's car you virtually need 80mph on the speedo before your doing 70mph based of a GPS. So I think some people think they are doing the speed limit but are almost 10mph under when you get to 70mph roads. Everyone's is different as well so it creates this constant differing of speeds when I suspect most people are just trying to do the speed limit. This probably causes traffic, road rage and all sorts of other road problems.



So say someone is doing 50mph on a 70mph dual carriageway road and sat in the fast lane, your just going to sit behind them for how long? 5 miles, 20 miles, until they turn off? I think sooner or later most people would flash their lights, honk their horn or something. That person who's breaking the Highway Code is inconviencing you. Maybe making you late for a meeting / work or forcing you to have to start off earlier so you can just patiently sit behind them driving slowly.

I agree I might flash my lights to let them know I was there. I suggest this is a very rare occurrence especially for long periods. Some people do hog the outer lane at times far too early if turning right at the next junction but seldom for 5 miles. In my experience anyway.

 

[E55BOF]

If I come up behind a slower car that could reasonably move over, I'll flash once, then again a few seconds later, to let the driver know I'm there, and if he/she still does not move over, whether due to pig-headedness, ignorance or lack of observation, I'm done waiting. I know it is wrong, but if it's safe to do so, I'll nip past them on the inside. I wouldn't do it to a police car, though; whatever the rights or wrongs of the situation, it's not a good idea to tweak policemen's tails...

 

[219]

Only when needs be. I might be a BMW driver currently but I stay in the left most lane I can based on traffic and use my indicators at well

Having said that, there's a lot of slow drivers so the overtaking lanes get quite a bit of use. That isn't even talking about breaking the speed limit but just doing the speed limit.

I'd say half the problem there is the insistence of having speedos give the wrong speed. My current car is actually spot on with the speedo vs GPS or at least as close as damn it. My wife's car you virtually need 80mph on the speedo before your doing 70mph based of a GPS. So I think some people think they are doing the speed limit but are almost 10mph under when you get to 70mph roads. Everyone's is different as well so it creates this constant differing of speeds when I suspect most people are just trying to do the speed limit. This probably causes traffic, road rage and all sorts of other road problems.



So say someone is doing 50mph on a 70mph dual carriageway road and sat in the fast lane, your just going to sit behind them for how long? 5 miles, 20 miles, until they turn off? I think sooner or later most people would flash their lights, honk their horn or something. That person who's breaking the Highway Code is inconviencing you. Maybe making you late for a meeting / work or forcing you to have to start off earlier so you can just patiently sit behind them driving slowly.

There is no 'fast lane' : save for when overhead gantry signs close individual lanes or ascribe individual speed limits to each lane on the approach to roadworks or an incident , the speed limit is generally the same for all lanes .

Laws can be broken , but The Highway Code is just a book of generally good advice ; one does not 'break' it , even if one might disregard parts of it at times .

Regarding speedometers , unless you have a current calibration certificate , you cannot legally comment on the accuracy or otherwise of speedometers . Construction and use regulations have long specified that a vehicle speedometer must be accurate to within +10%/-0% of the actual speed : this is , and always has been , so that the vehicle cannot be travelling faster in actuality than the indicated reading . Those who deliberately exceed an indicated maximum permitted speed because they feel they know better are being both foolish and arrogant , and I would like to see them try their argument on in a court of law .

 

[FastLaneJB]

I agree I might flash my lights to let them know I was there. I suggest this is a very rare occurrence especially for long periods. Some people do hog the outer lane at times far too early if turning right at the next junction but seldom for 5 miles. In my experience anyway.

I think it's getting worse though. I quite often see people that sit in the outer lanes with no intention of ever moving back to the left. Maybe it is as someone said foreigners that don't understand how our roads are supposed to work. Peterborough is an immigration heavy part of the country.

There is no 'fast lane' : save for when overhead gantry signs close individual lanes or ascribe individual speed limits to each lane on the approach to roadworks or an incident , the speed limit is generally the same for all lanes .

Laws can be broken , but The Highway Code is just a book of generally good advice ; one does not 'break' it , even if one might disregard parts of it at times .

Regarding speedometers , unless you have a current calibration certificate , you cannot legally comment on the accuracy or otherwise of speedometers . Construction and use regulations have long specified that a vehicle speedometer must be accurate to within +10%/-0% of the actual speed : this is , and always has been , so that the vehicle cannot be travelling faster in actuality than the indicated reading . Those who deliberately exceed an indicated maximum permitted speed because they feel they know better are being both foolish and arrogant , and I would like to see them try their argument on in a court of law .

Thats just semantics on the lane name. You know what I mean.

I'm aware of what the law says for speedo calibration. I don't need a calibration certificate to know that in my car at 70mph my GPS says 70 and in my wife's at 70mph it says 61mph on the same GPS device. I'm not presenting my findings to a judge, I'm discussing it on a forum. As long as your driving on level ground so no change in height which GPS systems don't generally take into account they are extremely accurate.

My point was that setting a speed limit on a road and then varying everyone's speedos creates a situation where people still all travel at varying speeds. So say I was following my wife, she hits 70mph on her speedo and thinks she's not holding traffic up. I come up behind her and she's only got 61mph according to my speedo that's annoying because she's not doing the speed limit and holding me up. She on the other hand might be completely unaware that she's not doing 70mph.

That's a theoretical, she knows her speedo is off. I'm just saying the tech has existed for a long time to have accurate speedos and if all our cars showed the same speed, life might be a bit more pleasant on the roads.

 

[jpwilliams]

^^ Thought it was a suggestion rather than reality? Seems good to me.

I think that the idea is a good one too.
Such lane discipline is adhered to on the Continent with very effective results, and it is enforced by the Law!

The Highway Code already covers such lane usage, but as always individuals choose to ignore it or are ignorant of it.

Regards

John

 

[Clivefa]

I was told on a naughty boy driving course, that if the traffic is travelling bellow the speed limit then it was okay to undertake. (as long as you are not speeding)

That is correct.

 

[219]

I think it's getting worse though. I quite often see people that sit in the outer lanes with no intention of ever moving back to the left. Maybe it is as someone said foreigners that don't understand how our roads are supposed to work. Peterborough is an immigration heavy part of the country.

It really is a UK problem , so foreigners are unlikely to be at fault here : the culture on the continent is quite the opposite where drivers would be ashamed to be holding up faster traffic behind .

Thats just semantics on the lane name. You know what I mean.

Those semantics are part of the problem and the culture - if we didn't have dinosaurs who persisted in the ideas of 'fast lanes' and 'slow lanes' we wouldn't have the lane hogging problems that go with it .

I'm aware of what the law says for speedo calibration. I don't need a calibration certificate to know that in my car at 70mph my GPS says 70 and in my wife's at 70mph it says 61mph on the same GPS device. I'm not presenting my findings to a judge, I'm discussing it on a forum. As long as your driving on level ground so no change in height which GPS systems don't generally take into account they are extremely accurate.

Yes you do ! Without a calibration certificate you can't possibly know what speed a true 70 mph is on either instrument . You say that "in my car at 70mph my GPS says 70" but you have no accurate means of proving that you are actually travelling at 70 . Remember , no instrument is permitted to read even 1 mph under the true speed , so if you are seeing a difference of 9 mph at a supposed 70 then you have a discrepancy of more than the allowed 10% . This means that either your supposedly accurate GPS unit isn't accurate ( which we all know to be true since they merely calculate speed based on measured distance over time and is a process of constant calculation which , by nature , always lags behind real time and can never be instantaneous , as well as not being able to take account of changes in altitude or direction , drive round a corner or in a circle and it will be calculating your speed based on the straight line distance between two points on the curve and not the linear speed along the curve , therefore less accurate than something that measures linear speed on the ground based on rotational speed of the wheels ) or the instrument in your wife's car is over reading by more than 10% , which is not permitted .

My point was that setting a speed limit on a road and then varying everyone's speedos creates a situation where people still all travel at varying speeds. So say I was following my wife, she hits 70mph on her speedo and thinks she's not holding traffic up. I come up behind her and she's only got 61mph according to my speedo that's annoying because she's not doing the speed limit and holding me up. She on the other hand might be completely unaware that she's not doing 70mph.

Nobody is 'varying everyone's speedos'

Of course , instruments which measure speed based on the speed of rotation of the wheels will always be variable with factors such as tyre wear and therefore not constant - this is nothing new and manufacturing tolerances will always mean that there will be variances in accuracy between instruments on one vehicle versus another . The law takes account of this by providing acceptable tolerances .

You are being very presumptuous in the absence of proper calibration for either instrument in thinking that her instrument is wrong and yours is right . Decide that you know better , sail into a speeding ticket and you will indeed be presenting your argument to a judge - your hearsay that your speedo 'must be more accurate because it's GPS' won't hold any weight in a court of law without proper evidence from a proper and legally recognised authority .

That's a theoretical, she knows her speedo is off. I'm just saying the tech has existed for a long time to have accurate speedos and if all our cars showed the same speed, life might be a bit more pleasant on the roads.

Of course the technology has existed for a long time to measure things accurately : in order to know things are accurate they need to be calibrated against standard units ; even then calibrations drift off and instruments need to be recalibrated . It just isn't practical for all vehicle speedometers to be constantly recalibrated , so some error has to be accepted and allowed for . Even calibrated instruments on police cars , used to provide evidence of speed have to be regularly checked ( at the beginning and end of each shift in some cases , with any discrepancy resulting in all cases for that day being thrown out ) .

 

[FastLaneJB]

It really is a UK problem , so foreigners are unlikely to be at fault here : the culture on the continent is quite the opposite where drivers would be ashamed to be holding up faster traffic behind .[\QUOTE]

That's a huge over generalisation, Europe is a large place. I get that the Germans do this right but at the same time there's plenty of countries in Europe where the driving style is way worse than it is in the UK. I don't doubt that it probably is a mostly UK based problem but some foreigners are also bound to be to blame. They might be the ones that will not move back across lanes even when you flash them for instance because they are unaware they are even doing anything wrong.

Those semantics are part of the problem and the culture - if we didn't have dinosaurs who persisted in the ideas of 'fast lanes' and 'slow lanes' we wouldn't have the lane hogging problems that go with it .

It's irrelevant how you want to call it, that doesn't mean that people who call it the fast lane don't understand they need to move over. It is semantics.

Yes you do ! Without a calibration certificate you can't possibly know what speed a true 70 mph is on either instrument . You say that "in my car at 70mph my GPS says 70" but you have no accurate means of proving that you are actually travelling at 70 . Remember , no instrument is permitted to read even 1 mph under the true speed , so if you are seeing a difference of 9 mph at a supposed 70 then you have a discrepancy of more than the allowed 10% . This means that either your supposedly accurate GPS unit isn't accurate ( which we all know to be true since they merely calculate speed based on measured distance over time and is a process of constant calculation which , by nature , always lags behind real time and can never be instantaneous , as well as not being able to take account of changes in altitude or direction , drive round a corner or in a circle and it will be calculating your speed based on the straight line distance between two points on the curve and not the linear speed along the curve , therefore less accurate than something that measures linear speed on the ground based on rotational speed of the wheels ) or the instrument in your wife's car is over reading by more than 10% , which is not permitted .

I wasn't aware that your a judge and I'm under trial here. Why do I need to have a calibration certificate to know reasonably accurately what my speedo's error rate is? I fully understand how a GPS works and calculates speed. For info more modern phones can use the various other sensors to gauge how fast the phone is moving as well from the forces applied to it, they don't just have to rely on the GPS chip.

The same GPS device device even if it is wrong is going to have the same error margin in the same cars. It doesn't change the fact that in 2 different cars its showing the speedo variance to be rather large. You yourself know that there is a variance of 10% (+2 which makes 61mph perfectly legal on a 70 if not right on the borders).

Not only this but if you've driven around the UK a bit you'll have noticed those signs which show your speed as you drive past those. Again I accept they might be slightly off but actually they seem to match up with my GPS within 1mph either side if not exactly the same.

You seem to be disputing that the speedo in my car is not accurate when that wasn't even the point of what I said in the first place. The point of what I said was that speedos vary from car to car as you well know because you've said so yourself. So please tell me, what is your point?

Nobody is 'varying everyone's speedos' :wall bash:

Yes they are, the car makers themselves do it so they can say the car is within the legal bounds. They each do it to varying levels. You obviously know this though because you know that speedos are allowed a variance...

If you've ever purchased a new car you'd find they can be inaccurate the day you pick the car up. It's done on purpose. There's no tire wear, no wrong sized rims or such at that point.

Of course , instruments which measure speed based on the speed of rotation of the wheels will always be variable with factors such as tyre wear and therefore not constant - this is nothing new and manufacturing tolerances will always mean that there will be variances in accuracy between instruments on one vehicle versus another . The law takes account of this by providing acceptable tolerances .

Right but it is possible to get the speeds far more accurate and cars know the distance they've travelled pretty well. Try reseting your trip counter and travelling for a reasonably long distance at a fixed speed (Hard to do in this country I'll admit). You'll find your trip counter is pretty damn accurate on the distance you've travelled and if you calculate the speed you travelled and for how long the speedo will not match that. They have an accurate calculation and then they throw that off by say 3% or 5% or whatever they wish so theres no risk of them breaking the law with their speedos.

You are being very presumptuous in the absence of proper calibration for either instrument in thinking that her instrument is wrong and yours is right . Decide that you know better , sail into a speeding ticket and you will indeed be presenting your argument to a judge - your hearsay that your speedo 'must be more accurate because it's GPS' won't hold any weight in a court of law without proper evidence from a proper and legally recognised authority .

What's speed tickets got to do with anything? The point was that the cars speedos vary. It is you who's going on and on about calibration equipment when it's irrelevant to the point I made.

Of course the technology has existed for a long time to measure things accurately : in order to know things are accurate they need to be calibrated against standard units ; even then calibrations drift off and instruments need to be recalibrated . It just isn't practical for all vehicle speedometers to be constantly recalibrated , so some error has to be accepted and allowed for . Even calibrated instruments on police cars , used to provide evidence of speed have to be regularly checked ( at the beginning and end of each shift in some cases , with any discrepancy resulting in all cases for that day being thrown out ) .

So you admit they can measure speed accurately. I suspect you'll find on a modern car that the drift is virtually nothing. You have to remember we are talking about cars that can detect if your falling asleep, drifting out of your lane and so on. They can measure the speed your going and distance you've travelled just fine.

So now that you've agreed with me by trying to disagree with me, can we move on?

 

[Giantvanman]

Pontoneer and FastlaneJB:

I don't know why you two are arguing about speedometer accuracy. Lane discipline has nothing to do with speed. You are either overtaking in the overtaking only lane (third lane on a three lane dual carriageway or motorway, for example) or you aren't. If you aren't, then you are lane hogging….making common sense allowances for heavy traffic conditions, of course.

 

[sl300 ireland]

The standard of driving in the UK is poor vs europe,drivers in the uk feel its ok to sit in the middle lane,especially in road works @45 or on the phone,in my experiance never flash as they go slower,as they think this is highly amusing very sad individuals.hate driving through it every week

 

[geraldrobins]

The standard of driving in the UK is poor vs europe,drivers in the uk feel its ok to sit in the middle lane,especially in road works @45 or on the phone,in my experiance never flash as they go slower,as they think this is highly amusing very sad individuals.hate driving through it every week

That's a very inaccurate generalisation in my experience and opinion. Some drivers yes but a minority.