Motorway lane discipline - would these help?

[FastLaneJB]

Pontoneer and FastlaneJB:

I don't know why you two are arguing about speedometer accuracy. Lane discipline has nothing to do with speed. You are either overtaking in the overtaking only lane (third lane on a three lane dual carriageway or motorway, for example) or you aren't. If you aren't, then you are lane hogging….making common sense allowances for heavy traffic conditions, of course.

I wasn't trying to argue. The argument seemed to come to me. I was mearly suggesting that I suspect some people think they are going 70mph so don't feel the need to switch lanes because you shouldn't be breaking the speed limit to overtake them. Only they aren't going 70mph because their speedo is lying to them.

The problem I guess is there is plenty of people who break the limit, plenty who drive slower. When there's average speed cameras it actually seems to fix a lot of these problems. I'm not buying that speed cameras really improve road safety hugely though and far more they are put in place to make extra money.

 

[sl300 ireland]

That's a very inaccurate generalisation in my experience and opinion. Some drivers yes but a minority.

I think thats the issue they think they are good drivers in Uk,but in truth very poor,
dont get me started about how they cant drive in the rain.

 

[219]

It really is a UK problem , so foreigners are unlikely to be at fault here : the culture on the continent is quite the opposite where drivers would be ashamed to be holding up faster traffic behind .[\QUOTE]

That's a huge over generalisation, Europe is a large place. I get that the Germans do this right but at the same time there's plenty of countries in Europe where the driving style is way worse than it is in the UK. I don't doubt that it probably is a mostly UK based problem but some foreigners are also bound to be to blame. They might be the ones that will not move back across lanes even when you flash them for instance because they are unaware they are even doing anything wrong.



It's irrelevant how you want to call it, that doesn't mean that people who call it the fast lane don't understand they need to move over. It is semantics.



I wasn't aware that your a judge and I'm under trial here. Why do I need to have a calibration certificate to know reasonably accurately what my speedo's error rate is? I fully understand how a GPS works and calculates speed. For info more modern phones can use the various other sensors to gauge how fast the phone is moving as well from the forces applied to it, they don't just have to rely on the GPS chip.

The same GPS device device even if it is wrong is going to have the same error margin in the same cars. It doesn't change the fact that in 2 different cars its showing the speedo variance to be rather large. You yourself know that there is a variance of 10% (+2 which makes 61mph perfectly legal on a 70 if not right on the borders).

Not only this but if you've driven around the UK a bit you'll have noticed those signs which show your speed as you drive past those. Again I accept they might be slightly off but actually they seem to match up with my GPS within 1mph either side if not exactly the same.

You seem to be disputing that the speedo in my car is not accurate when that wasn't even the point of what I said in the first place. The point of what I said was that speedos vary from car to car as you well know because you've said so yourself. So please tell me, what is your point?



Yes they are, the car makers themselves do it so they can say the car is within the legal bounds. They each do it to varying levels. You obviously know this though because you know that speedos are allowed a variance...

If you've ever purchased a new car you'd find they can be inaccurate the day you pick the car up. It's done on purpose. There's no tire wear, no wrong sized rims or such at that point.



Right but it is possible to get the speeds far more accurate and cars know the distance they've travelled pretty well. Try reseting your trip counter and travelling for a reasonably long distance at a fixed speed (Hard to do in this country I'll admit). You'll find your trip counter is pretty damn accurate on the distance you've travelled and if you calculate the speed you travelled and for how long the speedo will not match that. They have an accurate calculation and then they throw that off by say 3% or 5% or whatever they wish so theres no risk of them breaking the law with their speedos.



What's speed tickets got to do with anything? The point was that the cars speedos vary. It is you who's going on and on about calibration equipment when it's irrelevant to the point I made.



So you admit they can measure speed accurately. I suspect you'll find on a modern car that the drift is virtually nothing. You have to remember we are talking about cars that can detect if your falling asleep, drifting out of your lane and so on. They can measure the speed your going and distance you've travelled just fine.

So now that you've agreed with me by trying to disagree with me, can we move on?

Oh my , you're getting yourself into a terrible twist , or several .

First you say that bad driving is by foreigners who don't understand the rules of our roads ( which are generally the same as theirs ) then you say it isn't !

Then you say

"It's irrelevant how you want to call it, that doesn't mean that people who call it the fast lane don't understand they need to move over. It is semantics." .

Well I would disagree - quite a number of people are ignorant of the rules and I would suggest there is a high correlation between such people and those who use that terminology .

Re GPS accuracy , you were the one who started banging on about how accurate your car's GPS speedometer was , although it now sounds as though it is a TomTom or similar separate device since you use it in multiple cars and that it disagrees with your wife's instrument , but not yours . You were absolutely convinced yours was accurate - how can you be so sure without calibration ?

10% +2 mph is the ACPO guideline for the threshold of enforcement of speed limits , not the permitted tolerance for accuracy of speedometers under construction & use , which is +10%/-0% and an entirely different thing .

You also go on about the accuracy of a GPS unit not varying from one car to another - actually it can , depending on the positioning within the car and how it affects GPS reception . GPS accuracy will also vary from one area to another , again depending on GPS reception in that area and calculated speed will also vary with topography .

Yes , I quite often pass the radar operated signs which display your speed , and generally do find them to closely agree with the mechanical speedometers on most vehicles , and also with satnav devices if I happen to be using one .

Again , you said

"You seem to be disputing that the speedo in my car is not accurate when that wasn't even the point of what I said in the first place. The point of what I said was that speedos vary from car to car as you well know because you've said so yourself. So please tell me, what is your point? "

That is exactly what you said earlier :

"I don't need a calibration certificate to know that in my car at 70mph my GPS says 70" ,

then you repeatedly went on about how accurate your speedometer was without any evidence to back it up .


Next you make it sound like some kind of conspiracy theory

"Yes they are, the car makers themselves do it so they can say the car is within the legal bounds. They each do it to varying levels. ... It's done on purpose. There's no tire wear, no wrong sized rims or such at that point."

Speedometers are NOT made inaccurate on purpose ; the law requires that a car may not indicate a lower speed than that actually being travelled and permits instruments to over read up to a maximum of 10% but never to under read ( so that , for example , you can't be sitting at an indicated seventy but actually doing more ) . Depending on how accurate a manufacturer feels they can reliably make their instrumentation work they will often use a tolerance of much less than 10% particularly where electronic speedometers have replaced older cable-driven mechanical ones which were more susceptible to wear and tear .

"Right but it is possible to get the speeds far more accurate and cars know the distance they've travelled pretty well. Try reseting your trip counter and travelling for a reasonably long distance at a fixed speed (Hard to do in this country I'll admit). You'll find your trip counter is pretty damn accurate on the distance you've travelled and if you calculate the speed you travelled and for how long the speedo will not match that. They have an accurate calculation and then they throw that off by say 3% or 5% or whatever they wish so theres no risk of them breaking the law with their speedos."

So now you've got a calibrated odometer as well ? Or do you spend your time travelling around and comparing your mileage readings with measured distances on the OS maps or road signs ? Since speedometers and odometers are generally one combined instrument , why would you presume one part is subject to error and the other is not ?

"What's speed tickets got to do with anything? The point was that the cars speedos vary. It is you who's going on and on about calibration equipment when it's irrelevant to the point I made."

The point I made there is that you are the one asserting that your wife's speedometer is wrong , by quite a margin . That really is just your opinion with nothing legally binding to back it up : suppose you do go out in a car at an indicated 70 but decide that , because you have some supposedly super accurate accessory , you know better and decide to go another x mph faster , then get pulled over . The judiciary are not going to be impressed by 'my TomTom said I was only going at 70' when approved measuring equipment said otherwise .

Lastly , no one was talking about cars that can detect whether you've fallen asleep , farted or anything else : you brought that up . Yes many modern cars have good speedometers , so do many older ones .

You were the one who went on about other peoples' speedometers being less accurate than yours and holding you up on your undoubtedly more important journeys .

Unfortunately , hold ups are a fact of life and if you need to be somewhere on time you need to factor that into your travelling time and allow a margin for it .

 

[geraldrobins]

I think thats the issue they think they are good drivers in Uk,but in truth very poor,
dont get me started about how they cant drive in the rain.

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Charles Morgan]

After extensive autobahn driving in Germany in the last few years I see the same quality of motorway driving as here. France, on the autoroutes, is better. The reason - the roads are almost completely clear. Germany and here are heavily congested and that leads to much more selfish driving.

South East England - the driving is shocking.

 

[WDB124066]

Change the rule to permit overtaking on either side, it's been like that here since we had our first Mway...

 

[markmifsud]

Last time I was in Germany on the great Autobahn's I was doing circa 130 in the fast lane and a truck pulled over into my lane doing no more than 70. I am told that this is quite normal and to be expected.

FWIW I rely on GPS indicated speed, normal use is supposed to be accurate to 0.1mph but most say to allow 0.5mph for timing issues.


http://gpsinformation.net/main/gpsspeed.htm

 

[brucemillar]

Sadly it's often down to the attitude that people have in general to their fellow humans. That is summed as a complete lack of respect smothered in a dollop of indifference. The car is seen and used as a tool to get from A to B in the fastest time possible without the need to concern oneself about the impact that your actions may have on others.

That attitude spills onto public transport.

On Friday I asked a chap if he would care to give up his seat on the packed train to the obviously disabled elderly lady that had just boarded. Without even the slightest homage to my question or any empathy he simply responded with "F**k Off Grandad"

My recent health woes have left me very aware of mortality and how close it is to us all. That feels like it leaves me in a minority. "Treat others as you would like to be treated" is almost unrecognisable in today's yoof culture. They see affecting a Jamaican accent as demanding respect, queues as things to be pushed past, elderly people as pests.

Driving is to be learned on Grand Theft Auto where crashes lose you points and everybody walks away.

 

[Druk]

Drove southbound thru LA yesterday on an eight lane freeway. They're doing 50, 60, 70, 80mph in whatever lane they fancy. Undertake, overtake? The words mean nothing to them, they just stay in lane and get on with it. But is it scary?

OH YES!!

 

[Dryce]

Last time I was in Germany on the great Autobahn's I was doing circa 130 in the fast lane and a truck pulled over into my lane doing no more than 70. I am told that this is quite normal and to be expected.

So car goes under back of truck.

Car speed goes from 130 to 75. Crush. RIP.

Truck speed goes from 70 to 75. Bump. Pulls over to see what the problem is (..... or once was ).

So yes. Truck driver doesn't have much incentive for it not to be normal.

German fatalities per billion vehcle km? 14% higher than UK.

 

[Dryce]

But is it scary?

OH YES!!

Try Malaysia.

Malaysian drivers think that lane markings are to be straddled at all times and that signalling left or right is an invitation to other vehicles - in fact maybe even a demand - to pass on that side. So mirror signal manoeuvre becomes mirror, signal, oops! where did he/she come from?

Roads apparently marked as 3 lane become 5 lane when there is a jam.

It's not only motorcycles that can filter. Cars, light goods vehicles, and trucks can exploit the same gaps just as well as any Honda C90.

It's important to get your family out of the car and off the hard shoulder while you change a wheel ..... and have them all stand in lane 1.

Overloaded mini-people carriers corner faster than any other type of vehicle due to the laws of physics. The government builds tight bends on down hill stretches of motorway to exploit this capability.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Thinking about this subject I suppose that I have come to the conclusion that it won't be getting any better and' unconsciously, I have changed my style to adapt to the conditions. This has also come at a time when my mileage for the last 12 months has been about 20% of the previous year(s).
I no longer expect any courtesy from anyone, if I can see a path through traffic where I can advance I will take it. I don't expect thanks from other motorists if I was to, say, pull in to let them through therefore I don't even look at them so can't be offended by their ignorance.
I'll happily use the inside lanes on a motorway to undertake if I can do so without drama. If someone is obstinately blocking the outside lane when not overtaking I will flash my lights without thinking about it, again, I will not look at the driver when I pass because I already know what a ****er I am.

It's a lot less stressful than trying to be a gent/doing the right thing.

 

[WDB124066]

Try Malaysia.

Malaysian drivers think that lane markings are to be straddled at all times and that signalling left or right is an invitation to other vehicles - in fact maybe even a demand - to pass on that side. So mirror signal manoeuvre becomes mirror, signal, oops! where did he/she come from?

Roads apparently marked as 3 lane become 5 lane when there is a jam.

It's not only motorcycles that can filter. Cars, light goods vehicles, and trucks can exploit the same gaps just as well as any Honda C90.

It's important to get your family out of the car and off the hard shoulder while you change a wheel ..... and have them all stand in lane 1.

Overloaded mini-people carriers corner faster than any other type of vehicle due to the laws of physics. The government builds tight bends on down hill stretches of motorway to exploit this capability.

That's it, coming to a first world Country soon - or is that already...??

 

[FastLaneJB]

Last time I was in Germany on the great Autobahn's I was doing circa 130 in the fast lane and a truck pulled over into my lane doing no more than 70. I am told that this is quite normal and to be expected.

FWIW I rely on GPS indicated speed, normal use is supposed to be accurate to 0.1mph but most say to allow 0.5mph for timing issues.


gpsspeed

Oh no. Now you'll get a talking to by pontoneer on how you need a calibration certificate.

Agree though. It's the cheapest way to get a pretty damn accurate real indication of speed.

 

[zipdip]

Well if you drive large distances on our motorway network,you will understand very quickly that during the day the inside lane is nearly fully populated by trucks,doing 56mph although this seems to be creeping up to 60mph,if there are no trucks then fine use the inside lane,but for most of the time you have to be very careful doing that because the truck you are catching up then overtakes another now you have to move to the middle and then the outside lane so moving twice no real problem for good drivers,but it still carries a risk,so if you stay in the middle lane doing 73mph you only have one move when that happens,and you cannot be holding anybody up in the middle lane because you are already being a naughty boy exceeding the speed limit,but I suspect the people who moan about middle lane hoggers are talking about those who do 60 mph in the middle lane,which can be a pain.

 

[MD5]

...,but I suspect the people who moan about middle lane hoggers are talking about those who do 60 mph in the middle lane,which can be a pain.

I don't care what speed they are doing, but if the inside lane is empty, they should use it!

I travel at odd times to try and avoid the heavy stuff, which also travels travels at odd times to avoid the heavy stuff! I guarantee if I go along the M40 at three in the morning, there will be some idiot in the middle lane, when there is no-one else for miles!

 

[Wheelsnuts]

Lane discipline was not much of an issue over a significant portion of my journey north along the full length of the M1 last week. We kept on lurching from one tedious seemingly endless 50mph average speed check to another. So all three lanes were occupied by vehicles bunched up and crawling along at the same speed for mile after boring mile. That is until we ground to a complete halt for over an hour south of Sheffield. Apart from one or two impatient horn blowers, the true British spirit in the face of adversity prevailed, and some people were getting out of their cars to chat to their neighbours and speculate on the cause of the hold up or just to stand around in the sun. It appeared that the northbound carriageway had been closed due to a lorry fire near Woodhall Services, though there was no sign of any incident when we eventually crawled past there.
So perhaps that's your answer: plenty of average speed restrictions and a few incidents and who cares what lane you should be in or how quickly you can get from A to B??
By the way, does anyone know what's in those purple tubes that have appeared on the top of the central barriers along the length of motorway roadworks? Just something I was idly speculating about on the journey.

 

[Williamwoo]

Well if you drive large distances on our motorway network,you will understand very quickly that during the day the inside lane is nearly fully populated by trucks,doing 56mph although this seems to be creeping up to 60mph,if there are no trucks then fine use the inside lane,but for most of the time you have to be very careful doing that because the truck you are catching up then overtakes another now you have to move to the middle and then the outside lane so moving twice no real problem for good drivers,but it still carries a risk,so if you stay in the middle lane doing 73mph you only have one move when that happens,and you cannot be holding anybody up in the middle lane because you are already being a naughty boy exceeding the speed limit,but I suspect the people who moan about middle lane hoggers are talking about those who do 60 mph in the middle lane,which can be a pain.

That's one helluva sentence! Friendly suggestion - using a few full-stops to split it up a bit would make it much easier to read!

 

[Deleted member 6183]

That's one helluva sentence! Friendly suggestion - using a few full-stops to split it up a bit would make it much easier to read!

Well, to be fair, you never used a single full-stop in your sentence.

 

[renault12ts]

Well, to be fair, you never used a single full-stop in your sentence.

You can't use them in a sentence...only at the end. Just like that one before just.