Motorway lane discipline

[BenzComander]

Correct me if I am wrong, but HGV's are speed limited in some way? 55mph or is it 60??

So when they are at cruising speed, why do they try to overtake each other?? Two HGV's taking several miles to overtake each other turns them into a rolling roadblock!

In Germany, great stretches of the autobahn are two lanes and HGV's are banned from overtaking each other during certain hours. This works well, and they have to be off the road by 2.pm on a Saturday until early Monday morning.

Just my opinion!

 

[glojo]

Correct me if I am wrong, but HGV's are speed limited in some way? 55mph or is it 60??

In this modern age of 'impatient' driving I think you might have a point, but why not simply listen to the music on your hi-fi and let the two drivers overtake each other? In real time you might be inconvienanced by a whole minute, or perish the thought two minutes. Life is far too short to get annoyed over being delayed by two professional drivers ovetaking each other

Hamlett moment, deep breath and chill out.

Take care and onto the next roadrage incident.

John the laid back

 

[BenzComander]

Unfortunatly John, and with respect it is not merely a couple of minutes dely. Their (HGV's) overtaking manouvere causes a ripple braking effect on congested motorways that can eventually lead to the traffic stopping. Banning HGV's from overtaking each other during peak traffic flow would reduce this and keep the traffic moving.

 

[glojo]

Their (HGV's) overtaking manouvere causes a ripple braking effect on congested motorways that can eventually lead to the traffic stopping. Banning HGV's from overtaking each other during peak traffic flow would reduce this and keep the traffic moving.

An excellent and very valid point, but I feel it is too draconian, what your saying is the fastest HGV must travel only as quick as the slowest??

Your point about the 'ripple' effect is very valid, I have seen documentaries where a car closed too fast on the vehicle in front braked and this excessive braking caused the effects you have described. Perhaps a 60 or even 50mph speed limit during peak times might keep the traffic moving?? I believe this is being tested in conjunction with opening up the hard shoulder on the M42???

I am against this one lane suggestion as I believe HGV's are punished enough, they are restricted in the hours they drive, you and I are not??? They pay extortionate road taxation and surely this alone might give them more right to use our roads??

Should the overtaken HGV give way to the overtaking HGV??? Should that be a point worth discussing?

John the argumentative

 

[BenzComander]

An excellent and very valid point, but I feel it is too draconian, what your saying is the fastest HGV must travel only as quick as the slowest??

John, the majority of HGV's can cruise at the regulation speed on our motorways. The speed they are limited to is easily acieved even when fully loaded. Therfore, they should all be moving at the same speed. To try and ovetake at a mile an hour or so difference is wrong. The overtaking manouvers they undertake are because of impatience and severly slow the flow of traffic on the road.

My point is that if the law was specific in this area, with signs as per the German autobahns congestion and delays could be avoided during peak trafic flow.

 

[glojo]

John, the majority of HGV's can cruise at the regulation speed on our motorways. The speed they are limited to is easily acieved even when fully loaded.

I understand fully what your saying and in theory agree, but in practice surely there is a whole world of difference. Modern HGV's are extremely powerful and no doubt can easily reach 60mph??? However not all trucks have the same sized engine, the same power output, the same load etc etc. surely when you come to a slight gradient a truck carrying the maximum weight will slow down much, much quicker than an empty vehicle?? A lesser powered, fully loaded HGV will struggle much quicker than a high powered, modern vehicle? Some drivers might not want to travel at the maximum speed limit??

As I say your suggestion in theory is excellent, other countries appear to use it. I am NOT saying your wrong, I am merely seeing problems which may, or may not be there???

No doubt car users might be in favour of your suggestion, but surely this country depends on the haulage industry to survive??? Is this the same in Europe? Has the rail system declined as badly as our own?

I am NOT saying your wrong, I am asking questions

Where is Grav, and what are his thoughts\observations?

Take care,
John

 

[scumbag]

Where is Grav, and what are his thoughts\observations?

stuck on the M6 trying to pass me at 55.9 down the incline, but dont you worry, i will be passed him at 55.95 up the incline the other side of sandbach! (Limited to 56mph)

Best thing is for everyone to have a go in a HGV on the motorway. you may well see a very different side to the argument!

the word paitence springs to mind

 

[uumode]

the word paitence springs to mind

Patience for the truck driver who should remain behind the other vehicle during 0.5 mph slower than they would like travel at, (and stay put)

or patience for the car driver who is stuck behind the slow overtaking truck


slightly off topic, today I was driving along a two lane street in the right hand lane intending to turn right at the next set of traffic lights during 30mph in a 30mph zone, and a DHL delivery vehicle who is behind me, decides to undertake in the left hand lane at 40mph (must have been empty load as it moved pretty quickly), cuts in front of me, and goes straight over a large mini roundabout forgeting to give way (or was plain ambitious) - causing a poor Nissan Micra to slam on the brakes which happens to be coming around - near collision! - and speeding!

Happens a lot on that stretch, I'm doing smack bang legal, and a driver behind is on my rear and undertakes. There can be competent drivers who can drive at speed, and ones totally incompetent like the DHL driver above.

 

[Dryce]

An excellent and very valid point, but I feel it is too draconian, what your saying is the fastest HGV must travel only as quick as the slowest??

It might be more pragmatic to say that any HGV travelling over a
certain speed (eg. 50) is not allowed to overtake on designated
sections of roads. This would also be augmented with a separation
rule to ensure they don't bunch.

I am against this one lane suggestion as I believe HGV's are punished enough, they are restricted in the hours they drive, you and I are not??? They pay extortionate road taxation and surely this alone might give them more right to use our roads??

I suspect that while their taxation is high, in terms of damage done
to the roads it is in fact disproportionately low.

The hours restriction is a safety issue. Conversely the weights of
the vehicles have gone up which goes some way (in principle) to
mitigating the costs of the hours limitations.

I'm not up for persecuting HGVs. I think on the whole the majority
of HGVs I've noticed have been noticed because they've been
the 'good guy' in any encounter. The same cannot be said of
other car drivers that get noticed.

 

[glojo]

I suspect that while their taxation is high, in terms of damage done
to the roads it is in fact disproportionately low.

Far to technical for me to answer accurately but surely the vehicles that carry heavier loads have more axles to spread the weight of the load therefore the footprint is spread over a larger area???

The hours restriction is a safety issue. Conversely the weights of
the vehicles have gone up which goes some way (in principle) to
mitigating the costs of the hours limitations..

There is some logic in there somwhere. Totally agree about restricting HGV driver hours, but we don't care one fig about car drivers. Ooops, just remembered..... When entering Devon on the M5 there are signs that point out tiredness is a killer!!! (or words to that effect) So truck drivers get prosectuted, car drivers can read a sign (if they're awake )

John

 

[Dryce]

Far to technical for me to answer accurately but surely the vehicles that carry heavier loads have more axles to spread the weight of the load therefore the footprint is spread over a larger area???

There's the spread of the load across the axles which may not be even
so there's a max load per axle as well as a max load.

So you take a 40 ton truck and with 6 axles and you get an average
of 6.7 tons per axle. An E Class with petrol and passengers comes in
at about 2 tons -- a ton per axle.

Trucks are usually operated at a much higher utlisation than a car.

If the damage inflicted was assumed to be proportional. The truck
probably does well over 5 times the mileage of a car, with three
times as many axles and 6.7 times as much loading per axle. That
means simplistically you might assume that a truck equates to a
100 large cars (and perhaps a 150 non-MB saloons!).

In fact the damage is not proportional. It's a *lot* worse. Something
more like a 100000 (yes 5 zeroes) worse.

There is some logic in there somwhere. Totally agree about restricting HGV driver hours, but we don't care one fig about car drivers. Ooops, just remembered..... When entering Devon on the M5 there are signs that point out tiredness is a killer!!! (or words to that effect) So truck drivers get prosectuted, car drivers can read a sign (if they're awake )

The logic is that businesses are regulated in ways that private
citizens are not (or cannot be). Trucks are about business.

 

[Swiss Toni]

Best thing is for everyone to have a go in a HGV on the motorway. you may well see a very different side to the argument!

the word paitence springs to mind

Good point! - and blaming anyone (and everyone) else is little help!!

In much the same way that variable limits work very well so long as everyone takes notice, there is a point where if a proportion ignore them, the advantage to everyone disappears...

 

[scumbag]

It might be more pragmatic to say that any HGV travelling over a certain speed (eg. 50) is not allowed to overtake on designated
sections of roads. This would also be augmented with a separation
rule to ensure they don't bunch.

I am not picking up this point, but rather using it to highlight the point i made earlier. Nor am I ,in particular, directing any of my comments at this posters points or being critical of them in general.

Often, whilst at the helm, cars force there way into the inside lane to get to a slip road and off the motorway quite late. Now if this is done at a speed that is safe and at a speed that is faster than the HGV, and given consideration to other road users, no problem, altho some people do call it being cut up. But what often happens with impatient people, and those who dont have enough road craft to read the road far enough ahead, or anticipate the junction coming up, not that you get at least 1 miles warning, is these people drive fast past the HGV then sling the car into the inside lane, and for some reason need to slow down whilst still in it, to a speed slower than the HGV. this causes untold problems.

firstly, the HGV may not have the space with in which to pull safely into the middle lane, therefore it has to brake to increase the distance between it and the car which has now taken up the road blocking manoever. This then backs the traffic up behind it, as it cannot accelerate at car speed, back up to a resonable speed. Trucks folowing will pull into the middle lane to pass this accelerating truck so they dont have to slow down. This in turn means that cars have to wait behinds until they get get chance to pass the HGV's who are doing there best to maintain momentum. By the time the car gets past he doesnt see what cuased the intial momemtary lack of pace from the HGV and resultant lenght of time to get back up to speed.

Namely the impaitience of the car driver way back at the junction. who had to get past the truck at all costs no matter what!

My veiw about everyone driving or being passengered in a HGV will highlight these things for the car driver who hasnt had this experieince. this will adjust your thoughts on why trucks have to pass, and why they slow down. In the main you must remember that a truck driver will be doing his best to keep going and hold up people as little as possible. Same applies when Mrs "Far too old" slows down while joining a motorway instead of using the slip road to accelerate to at least the speed at the traffic immediatly to her right! thus joining at the same speed. No car on earth is unable to do at least 1mph more than any truck. so quite how people moan about trucks being right up there bot making any sense to me is a mystery. just drive 1mph faster than it can go and in 3 miles you will wonder where it is. and nobody had to slow down.

For those who know what I am meaning, the same applies when Bikers say everyone should learn to ride a bike. that way, when you overtake a bike in the wet, you give them full consdieration rather than driving close to them and spraying them.

I do believe you are meant to drive with due care and consideration for other road users. HGV's are other road users and it would be grossly unfair to invent a rule that is just aimed at controlling one group of road users for the benefit of others. Coaches can be limited to 56mph and cause just the same problems.

but all this can be reduced massively by one of 2 ways.

Either people stop getting impaitient and remember exactly what a HGV driver is trying to do,
or,
introduce a mandatory 50mph speed limit for everyone!

Until the day when everybody is installed with a microchip that gives you all this knowledge and skill from day one of driving that is! While we await that we need to take on board experinces from those who know and react to it, as opposed to heave everyone into doing something for the benefit of the few.

Font's of all Knowledge may ignore this post and carying oblivious!

 

[glojo]

There's the spread of the load across the axles which may not be even
so there's a max load per axle as well as a max load.

So you take a 40 ton truck and with 6 axles and you get an average
of 6.7 tons per axle. An E Class with petrol and passengers comes in
at about 2 tons -- a ton per axle.

Wow!! You are certainly on the ball, but........... You have forgotten the actual footprint of the truck vis-a-vis the car. I am talking here about the actual rubber that is in contact with the road. Would I be exaggerating if I were to suggest the amount of rubber on a twin wheeled side of one axle MIGHT be six times the area of the E-class?? and would that then spread the weight far more than the much narrower single tyre??

To prove I am NOT having a go at you, an articulated fully loaded lorry with two or maybe even three rear axles on its trailer will put horrendous stress onto the roads surface when it is carrying out a confined manoeuvre. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say it could possibly rip the top surface off of a road??? Thankfully though this type of driving is usually confined to loading\unloading areas, but it can certainly be seen on our highways.

I am still very much on the side of scumbag, who by the way 'pinched' my comment about patience . The standard of most drivers today is deplorable in this regard and I feel sure there are a number of guilty folks on this forum. Being held up, or delayed behind a slower moving vehicle be it push bike, car or lorry for a whole minute is NOTHING, absolutely nothing to moan about. Visit your local Children's Hospice and see folks that will NEVER have the opportunity to drive a Mercedes-Benz...... Then re-read this thread about being delayed for a few seconds behind a slower moving vehicle!!!!!!! Crazy or what???? Deep breathing and a nice piece of music is my answer.

John Chief Mattress Tester