Muhammad Ali

[Deleted member 37751]

I'm an avid boxing fan, Muhammad Ali revolutionised the sport, he really was a true showman and no-one ever since has fought with his hands so low to such great effect.

Although I'm sure his many faults will become sanitised in the not too distant future (if they haven't already), his memory as a man though, for me, is tainted by his treatment of the great Joe Frazier by calling him "Uncle Tom" amongst other jibes, such a vicious thing to say to a man like Smokin' Joe.

 

[Dogbreath]

I was lucky enough to meet Ali in Leeds at a book signing in the late 80's. Shook mine and my dads hand, a day I'll never forget....! R.i.p

 

[JohnBell]

Legend RIP homeboy.

 

[Pathewolf]

I'm an avid boxing fan, Muhammad Ali revolutionised the sport, he really was a true showman and no-one ever since has fought with his hands so low to such great effect.

Although I'm sure his many faults will become sanitised in the not too distant future (if they haven't already), his memory as a man though, for me, is tainted by his treatment of the great Joe Frazier by calling him "Uncle Tom" amongst other jibes, such a vicious thing to say to a man like Smokin' Joe.

Yes he had many affairs, so did Martin Luther King and JFK no one is pretending he was a saint! Ali apologized to Frazier for his taunting of him and perhaps he went to far! But you need to put that into context, Black people were being treated like sh@t in the USA and Joe was seemingly happy to get paid and not rock the boat!

Ali felt strongly about helping to make a difference and wrongly perhaps felt that Joe was complicit in the continued subjugation of black people! We all have "many faults" but few are prepared to make such a sacrifice for what they believe or will ever reach his level of achievement both in or out of the ring!

He was a major influence and inspiration for me along with Bruce Lee, the world is certainly a better place for so many just because he tried to make a difference! Thank you Muhammad Ali for the love and inspiration RIP!

 

[grober]

Something that a frind posted about this great man today:
When folk post constant, churned out, anti Muslim propaganda bull**** on a daily basis, I find it a bit confusing that they pay tribute to one of the greatest Muslim figures of all time. Tell me how that goes again ����

Different times basically.At the time the Muslim faith presented an alternative to the Christianity of the USA. This was a essentially an all white religious vision of the world where black people were expected to know their place and worship and get schooled separately to whites particularly in the Southern States. There were violent factions who advocated affirmative action [ see Malcolm X] and race riots [ Watts] but these were effectively nulified by further civil rights reforms to give more rights to black people. Its difficult to realise now that back then black people had basically remained economic and social "slaves" despite their emancipation from slavery.

These times were entirely different to the circumstances we have today where ISIS or DAESH is an entirely Middle East derived movement grown from political vacuums created mainly by Western military interventions and fuelled by money from our insatiable appetite for oil.


Put in simpler terms we are posting on a Mercedes forum--- a German car manufacturer - a country we fought 2 world wars with not that long ago--- different times means things are viewed in a different light

 

[92Adam]

The big man was a beautiful example to us all.

May the Almighty have mercy on his soul.

RIP MA

 

[GTR]

King of boxing , an ultimate legend.

RIP Muhammed Ali the greatest for sure

 

[bob6600]

LIVE funeral coverage will be on Sky News from 7pm

There is a live feed on YT

[YOUTUBE HD]vLCf-lNdjxc&feature=share[/YOUTUBE HD]

 

[def90cars]

Put in simpler terms we are posting on a Mercedes forum--- a German car manufacturer - a country we fought 2 world wars with not that long ago--- different times means things are viewed in a different light

Good points.

Great Boxer

Adulterer, racist and hypocritical pacifist would be some words too.

 

[Scott_F]

Good points.

Great Boxer

Adulterer, racist and hypocritical pacifist would be some words too.

So would misogynistic bully.

I saw an old clip last weekend of Ali and his first wife surrounded by reporters and one of them asked her how she was finding all the fame that surrounded them. Before she could reply, Ali interjected and responded to the effect that "She doesn't talk much - not unless I allow her to". His wife looked embarrassed and turned away from the microphone in silence. This was clearly something that she was used to and she knew better than to argue.

So in the strange, parallel universe that is Ali World, no one had the right to tell his wife that she couldn't sit in certain parts of a bus or restaurant but he had the right to publically humiliate her by deciding when she was allowed to speak.

So much for civil rights.

 

[Pathewolf]

Good points.

Great Boxer

Adulterer, racist and hypocritical pacifist would be some words too.

He also said that his sacrifice was nothing compared to those soldiers that made the ultimate sacrifice and died in Vietnam for what they believed in!

Not sure how you can call him a racist, he had friends and supported people from all nations! Not sure that Billy Crystal, Arnie, David Beckham, Bill Clinton or the many people of various colours and creeds that he helped would agree ! He certainly argued for equality and certainly used provocative language at times but he wanted and argued for equality for all!

 

[markjay]

I have no issue with Muhammad Ali being remembered as a hero for his achievements.

And as a person... he was born Christian, lived as a Muslim, and had a Jewish grandson. And in 1996 he said the following:


"My mother was a Baptist. She believed Jesus was the son of God, and I don’t believe that. But even though my mother had a religion different from me, I believe that, on Judgment Day, my mother will be in heaven.

There are Jewish people who lead good lives. When they die, I believe they’re going to heaven. It doesn’t matter what religion you are, if you’re a good person you’ll receive God’s blessing. Muslims, Christians and Jews all serve the same God. We just serve him in different ways.

Anyone who believes in One God should also believe that all people are part of one family. God created us all. And all people have to work to get along."

If more people think this way, there's hope for us all.


BUT - I have a slightly different issue... I used to enjoy watching boxing, but with age came the realisation that I was watching and cheering two men exchange painful (and potentially very damaging) blows.... not sure that's right anymore. Sorry if I am a minority here, and this should not detract from Muhammed Ali's achievements, I just think that time has come for to reconsider our attitude towards boxing.

 

[def90cars]

He also said that his sacrifice was nothing compared to those soldiers that made the ultimate sacrifice and died in Vietnam for what they believed in!

.....he wanted and argued for equality for all!

He tried to avoid the draft to Vietnam by at first saying he earned to much money to fight and then saying he had no fight with the viet-cong; they had not hurt him. He then realised his religion gave him a good out. Why was he better than others?

In the David Frost interview he says "all white men are the devil"; look up the definition of racism yourself and I think this fits.

We agree he was an adulterer though? (Also hypocritical to his religon(s)?)

ONLY my opinion of course.

 

[markjay]

He tried to avoid the draft to Vietnam by at first saying he earned to much money to fight and then saying he had no fight with the viet-cong; they had not hurt him. He then realised his religion gave him a good out. Why was he better than others?....

Apparently, what he actually said was:

"I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No Vietnamese ever called me a nigger."

Which, against the backdrop of events in the US in the 1960', takes a slightly deeper meaning - the American government expected black people to fight and die for their country, but they would not give them their basic civil rights.

You can obviously argue that he was cleverly using his skin colour as an excuse... and that like many young men of his generation he simply did not want to go to war... but we'll never know for sure.

What is true is that he made some controversial comments. After visiting Lebanon and saying that “the United States is the stronghold of Zionism and imperialism" he was accused of being both unpatriotic and an anti-semite, but then he became a close friend of President Clinton, and his daughter married a Jewish man and raised her child as a Jew with Ali's blessing.

Hypocrite? I am not sure. Perhaps just a multi-faceted personality?

 

[Scott_F]

Apparently, what he actually said was:

"I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No Vietnamese ever called me a nigger."

Which, against the backdrop of events in the US in the 1960', takes a slightly deeper meaning - the American government expected black people to fight and die for their country, but they would not give them their basic civil rights.

You can obviously argue that he was cleverly using his skin colour as an excuse... and that like many young men of his generation he simply did not want to go to war... but we'll never know for sure.?

A while ago, I saw some grainy black & white footage of Ali that had obviously been taken by some local TV company before his brain and his PR team had got to work. In it, he ranted and raved about the fact that he shouldn't have to go to Vietnam, let others go, if he stayed at home then his taxes would pay for x number of tanks and x number of soldiers etc. etc.. He came across like a petulant child who hadn't got his own way and it was all self-interest and me, me, me.

Of course, the version that we all now see is the later one where he has been well briefed and is calm and dignified and comes across as the very epitome of principled defiance. However, I think it is the first one that gives a more realistic and candid insight into the man and the real reasons behind his refusal to fight.

What is true is that he made some controversial comments. After visiting Lebanon and saying that “the United States is the stronghold of Zionism and imperialism" he was accused of being both unpatriotic and an anti-semite, but then he became a close friend of President Clinton, and his daughter married a Jewish man and raised her child as a Jew with Ali's blessing.

Hypocrite? I am not sure. Perhaps just a multi-faceted personality?

His comments were not merely "controversial". A white sportsman who decided to join a white separatist group (the Nation Of Islam had an agenda of black separatism and according to a programme that I watched last night held regular meetings with the KKK who had a similar white separatist agenda) and who dismissed people of another ethnic group as "blue-eyed devils" would find his career coming to a very abrupt conclusion. And after Joe Frazier's (completely deserved) victory in their first meeting, he declared that Frazier had got "the white man's decision" which revealed not only his racism but also the fact that he was just simply a very poor loser.

Those seeking to excuse his behaviour by citing his deprived background in the segregated South would therefore find it impossible to excuse his "Uncle Tom" comments directed at Frazier. As a black man from such a background, he would have known better than anyone that his remarks were deeply insulting and had unpleasant racial overtones but cheap pre-fight publicity is cheap pre-fight publicity. Decades later, he recognised this and issued a public apology (good PR is good PR) but he could never bring himself to apologise to Frazier directly.

As a boxer he was very good but nowhere near the greatest (far too many mediocre performances against journeymen fighters for that I'm afraid) and as a human being he was at least as flawed as the rest of us and quite possibly more so.

 

[grober]

A while ago, I saw some grainy black & white footage of Ali that had obviously been taken by some local TV company before his brain and his PR team had got to work. In it, he ranted and raved about the fact that he shouldn't have to go to Vietnam, let others go, if he stayed at home then his taxes would pay for x number of tanks and x number of soldiers etc. etc.. He came across like a petulant child who hadn't got his own way and it was all self-interest and me, me, me.

Of course, the version that we all now see is the later one where he has been well briefed and is calm and dignified and comes across as the very epitome of principled defiance. However, I think it is the first one that gives a more realistic and candid insight into the man and the real reasons behind his refusal to fight.




His comments were not merely "controversial". A white sportsman who decided to join a white separatist group (the Nation Of Islam had an agenda of black separatism and according to a programme that I watched last night held regular meetings with the KKK who had a similar white separatist agenda) and who dismissed people of another ethnic group as "blue-eyed devils" would find his career coming to a very abrupt conclusion. And after Joe Frazier's (completely deserved) victory in their first meeting, he declared that Frazier had got "the white man's decision" which revealed not only his racism but also the fact that he was just simply a very poor loser.

Those seeking to excuse his behaviour by citing his deprived background in the segregated South would therefore find it impossible to excuse his "Uncle Tom" comments directed at Frazier. As a black man from such a background, he would have known better than anyone that his remarks were deeply insulting and had unpleasant racial overtones but cheap pre-fight publicity is cheap pre-fight publicity. Decades later, he recognised this and issued a public apology (good PR is good PR) but he could never bring himself to apologise to Frazier directly.

As a boxer he was very good but nowhere near the greatest (far too many mediocre performances against journeymen fighters for that I'm afraid) and as a human being he was at least as flawed as the rest of us and quite possibly more so.

Where I would agree with you is in today's trend to deify well known personalities at the time of their death. Their achievements are lauded and their inadequacies and faults conveniently glossed over. Even in death they are "used" by others for the purposes of self-promotion by association. That said as Markjay aluded to he came from an inferior position in society to prominence via one of the few brutal professions open to black men at that time. In his later years he paid the price for that many times over with his Parkinsons--- undoubtedly a consequence of his many punishing bouts in the ring. So although he had a successful career he also paid a price for that success. To go into the ring with someone for 15 rounds who is bent on doing you damage [ its a fight after all albeit with rules] perhaps requires a certain personality with agression built in- you wouldn't be any good otherwise and might explain some of the racial aggression he expressed as a younger man------sort of goes with the territory.
What is undeniable is he was one of the best known people on the planet and even in this day and age people apparently need gods to worship if only for a few days now and again.
Racism between black and white or white and hispanic is still prevalent in many parts of America to this day. Witness the tone of the early political campaign waged against President Obama and Donald Trump building a wall between the USA and Mexico. This from the predominantly white "founding fathers" who developed their country through the sometimes deliberate sometimes inadvertant genocide of its native americans- but then nobody's perfect!

 

[Scott_F]

Where I would agree with you is in today's trend to deify well known personalities at the time of their death. Their achievements are lauded and their inadequacies and faults conveniently glossed over. Even in death they are "used" by others for the purposes of self-promotion by association. That said as Markjay aluded to he came from an inferior position in society to prominence via one of the few brutal professions open to black men at that time. In his later years he paid the price for that many times over with his Parkinsons--- undoubtedly a consequence of his many punishing bouts in the ring. So although he had a successful career he also paid a price for that success. To go into the ring with someone for 15 rounds who is bent on doing you damage [ its a fight after all albeit with rules] perhaps requires a certain personality with agression built in- you wouldn't be any good otherwise and might explain some of the racial aggression he expressed as a younger man------sort of goes with the territory

Whilst I concur with most of what you say here I do not accept that his behaviour "goes with the territory" since most of his contemporaries also came from poor backgrounds. Like Ali, Joe Frazier grew up in the segregated South - the son of dirt-poor sharecroppers - and yet his aggression was purely professional and not racial.

What is undeniable is he was one of the best known people on the planet and even in this day and age people apparently need gods to worship if only for a few days now and again.
Racism between black and white or white and hispanic is still prevalent in many parts of America to this day. Witness the tone of the early political campaign waged against President Obama and Donald Trump building a wall between the USA and Mexico. This from the predominantly white "founding fathers" who developed their country through the sometimes deliberate sometimes inadvertant genocide of its native americans- but then nobody's perfect!

Also witness the tone of Ali and his supporters in the build-up to his third meeting with Frazier. They managed to turn the fight into an issue that drove a wedge right through the black community by constantly telling them that they must choose between him (the black man's choice) and Frazier (the white man's choice). For someone who was supposed to champion civil rights and black unity he was quite happy to create unpleasant racial overtones where none had previously existed and to cast aside any principals that he may have held in pursuit of cheap pre-fight hype.

 

[grober]

Also witness the tone of Ali and his supporters in the build-up to his third meeting with Frazier. They managed to turn the fight into an issue that drove a wedge right through the black community by constantly telling them that they must choose between him (the black man's choice) and Frazier (the white man's choice). For someone who was supposed to champion civil rights and black unity he was quite happy to create unpleasant racial overtones where none had previously existed and to cast aside any principals that he may have held in pursuit of cheap pre-fight hype.

Wouldn't disagree with that summation but in a way highlights the contradictions inherent in the fight game. There seems to be this expectation in this " sport" that somehow fighters should be friends or at least free from aggression pre and post bout and yet then enter a ring and try to inflict brain damage [ usually temporary but not without long term implications for both parties ] on each other for the entertainment of others.
Perhaps pre bout aggression racial or otherwise is merely a more honest/true reflection of what a unpleasant business the professional fight game really is?

 

[bob6600]

 

[def90cars]

Would Christopher Reeve wear his Superman suit in heaven?