Muhammad Ali

[Lennox]

Would Christopher Reeve wear his Superman suit in heaven?

Probably!!! Hugh H will wear his robe!!!

 

[Bellow]

Was Ali not a different man at the end of his life distinct from his younger days? Why else did he say the 'A man at 50 etc' thing?
John Lennon was a bit of a sh!t early on but he changed as he aged.

 

[Pathewolf]

He tried to avoid the draft to Vietnam by at first saying he earned to much money to fight and then saying he had no fight with the viet-cong; they had not hurt him. He then realised his religion gave him a good out. Why was he better than others?

In the David Frost interview he says "all white men are the devil"; look up the definition of racism yourself and I think this fits.

We agree he was an adulterer though? (Also hypocritical to his religon(s)?)

ONLY my opinion of course.

Lots of men of all races wanted to avoid the draft for various reasons he was not alone! Given the fact that black men had no vote, had to ride in the back of the bus and could not share the same space as white people was more than enough reason not to fight! How ludicrous is that, not only are you preyed upon by clansman and considered inferior in our society but yes by the way can you go and fight and die in our war

You need to put it into context! I have seen the programme, very provacative I agree, did he really mean all white men no I don't think so! Should he have said it no! Did he mean it in relation to all the abusers (US segregation and racial prejudice, slavery, apartheid, injustice to native american's and aborigines etc, etc) then yes and most would agree!

Let's not pretend that people of colour have not been wronged by Europeans for hundreds of years! That is where that statement is coming from! Judge a man on what he doe's not what he says, none of his actions suggests that he really believed that!

His official biographer is white, his trainer Angelo Dundee was white, a long time friend who is also white gave a eulogy at the funeral! Apparently whenever he came to the UK he visited Reg Guthrie the boxing commentator! There are numerous stories of him helping white people so yes we will have to disagree!

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Was Ali not a different man at the end of his life distinct from his younger days? Why else did he say the 'A man at 50 etc' thing?
John Lennon was a bit of a sh!t early on but he changed as he aged.

I think it's not the fact Ali had flaws, it's how his history is being sanitised and whitewashed to make him look a saint when it's simply not the case.

Michael Jackson has undergone a similar 'cleansing', everyone seemingly forgetting he was a nonce.

 

[markjay]

I seem to remember that when the actor Richard Griffiths died 3 years ago, someone posted here that he met him on the set of one of his TV shows and he was not a nice person.

Similarly I just read a reader comment online regarding the current BHS fiasco that he met Philip Green in person at a barber's shop and he was arrogant and impatient.

Not to say that Griffiths or Philip Green was/is 'great' men - especially the latter given recent revelations - just the people's public persona is often very different to their private one.

 

[Pathewolf]

Whilst I concur with most of what you say here I do not accept that his behaviour "goes with the territory" since most of his contemporaries also came from poor backgrounds. Like Ali, Joe Frazier grew up in the segregated South - the son of dirt-poor sharecroppers - and yet his aggression was purely professional and not racial.

Also witness the tone of Ali and his supporters in the build-up to his third meeting with Frazier. They managed to turn the fight into an issue that drove a wedge right through the black community by constantly telling them that they must choose between him (the black man's choice) and Frazier (the white man's choice). For someone who was supposed to champion civil rights and black unity he was quite happy to create unpleasant racial overtones where none had previously existed and to cast aside any principals that he may have held in pursuit of cheap pre-fight hype.

You are forgetting an important point Ali was seen as anti establishment so all the powers that be wanted him to lose! The establishment liked Frazier because he was not interested in rocking the boat and behaved in a manner more of his status!

A wedge already existed in the black community between those that knew their place and went about things quietly and those that didn't! Ali did not want to be defeated by a representative of the establishment full stop! This was not hype, two different ideologies the moderates vs the more radical.

The Nation of Islam were certainly more extreme and wrong in many ways, but they were fighting against the establishment and white supremacists! It's also clear that Ali became less militant as time went by. People forget that while Ali raised issues and made statements sometimes wrongly and with too much anger, black people were being murdered by the clan and walking away with impunity!

 

[Scott_F]

You are forgetting an important point Ali was seen as anti establishment so all the powers that be wanted him to lose! The establishment liked Frazier because he was not interested in rocking the boat and behaved in a manner more of his status!

A wedge already existed in the black community between those that knew their place and went about things quietly and those that didn't! Ali did not want to be defeated by a representative of the establishment full stop! This was not hype, two different ideologies the moderates vs the more radical.

The Nation of Islam were certainly more extreme and wrong in many ways, but they were fighting against the establishment and white supremacists! It's also clear that Ali became less militant as time went by. People forget that while Ali raised issues and made statements sometimes wrongly and with too much anger, black people were being murdered by the clan and walking away with impunity!

Ali knew all along that what he had been saying was wrong and that it had nothing to do with any principles or beliefs.

As soon as the fight was over (but of course not before - the hype had to be maintained), he asked Frazier's son Marvis to pass on his apolgies. When he did so, Frazier asked Marvis why Ali was only apologising to his son and not to him but Ali's ego ensured that a real apology never came.

As others have said, none of us is perfect but we really shouldn't ignore the truth in the rush to idolise.

 

[Pathewolf]

Ali knew all along that what he had been saying was wrong and that it had nothing to do with any principles or beliefs.

As soon as the fight was over (but of course not before - the hype had to be maintained), he asked Frazier's son Marvis to pass on his apolgies. When he did so, Frazier asked Marvis why Ali was only apologising to his son and not to him but Ali's ego ensured that a real apology never came.

As others have said, none of us is perfect but we really shouldn't ignore the truth in the rush to idolise.

He was certainly one my idol's but I am not ignoring the truth! As I have said on more than one occasion Ali was wrong many times and I am more than happy to admit that he was far from perfect! The Nation of Islam is certainly not an organisation that I would support, but many, many years of minority ill treatment in the US certainly helped to create angry black men!

Others are happy however to label him racist when evidence to the contrary is there for all to see!

Imagine Adolf Hitler as a boxer, would he A. have a Black man in his corner?
B. have a Black man write his autobiography while he was still alive?
C. have a Black Jewish man as a friend and help raise monies for his charities whenever he needed his help?
D. arrange his own funeral to include Jewish people, Native Americans and representatives of all faiths?
E. still have a Black childhood friend that could give a eulogy and talk about the times they spent after his boxing career ended?!!
I could go on, but it's certainly not me who is ignoring the truth

 

[Scott_F]

Others are happy however to label him racist when evidence to the contrary is there for all to see!

Imagine Adolf Hitler as a boxer, would he A. have a Black man in his corner?
B. have a Black man write his autobiography while he was still alive?
C. have a Black Jewish man as a friend and help raise monies for his charities whenever he needed his help?
D. arrange his own funeral to include Jewish people, Native Americans and representatives of all faiths?
E. still have a Black childhood friend that could give a eulogy and talk about the times they spent after his boxing career ended?!!
I could go on, but it's certainly not me who is ignoring the truth

I'm afraid that the above proves absolutely nothing. Other than the most zealous bigot, most people with racist views can be highly selective.

It's rather like someone who regularly spouts ill-informed racist views denying that he is really a racist and citing as evidence the fact that he gets on well with a black bloke at work and enjoys going for a curry.

 

[Pathewolf]

I'm afraid that the above proves absolutely nothing. Other than the most zealous bigot, most people with racist views can be highly selective.

It's rather like someone who regularly spouts ill-informed racist views denying that he is really a racist and citing as evidence the fact that he gets on well with a black bloke at work and enjoys going for a curry.

It's hardly any ones view of selective, Ali supported thousands of people of all races and colours throughout his life! There are numerous stories of him meeting, greeting, supporting, mentoring his white fans, friends and colleagues so certainly not the same as a racist/bigot with one black acquaintance! We will obviously have to agree to disagree!

 

[Ted]

Bbc 4 now.