New daily…RS4 B8 vs C63 AMG: Opinions and questions?

[Franzino]

Some background info on my recent cars...and their purpose. My daily driver for the last eleven years is a BMW 325i estate (e46) from 2004 (full M-technic with a recently fitted Bilstein B-12). I also have a Z4M roadster from 2006 as a second fun & sun car. My Z4M is modified with CSL wheels, AP racing brakes and Bilstein PSS-10 suspension for my monthly visit to the Nurburgring and occasional trackday. It's a great street and track car with a perfect dual purpose. Like you see; I tend to keep my cars for a really long time and the next one I will buy will also stay for many years to come.

I wanted to buy a 3the car; and I was thinking of buying something that was more exotic then my Z4M and more at home on track straight from the box.... I was thinking of a Cayman GT4, Boxster Spyder when the were still available and a used Lotus Exige V6 S as a cheaper alternative. But recently the plans changed again; I need to replace my daily driver estate first… Buying an extra track & fun car is getting moved back and the Z4M is also staying for the moment.

To replace my daily driver I now have a bigger budget then last year. I'm now thinking of replacing my old 325i with a used Audi RS4 Avant B8 or a used Mercedes C63 AMG estate (facelift model from mid 2011 with the newer MCT transmission and updated interior). I never use the rear seats of my 325i touring...the rear seats are always folded down...so they have no purpose for me. I only need the booth space of an estate and I love the look of an estate/wagon. The older RS4 B7 also crossed my mind…but it has some engine and suspension issues and I don't know if it is a safe and reliable bet for a daily driver?

The RS4 or C63 AMG will be transformed to light utility vehicle...don't know the exact name in English or that this feature exists in the UK? It means the rears seats of an estate will be removed permanently and there is a big flat floor in the booth with no rear seats. It also means there is almost zero roadtax to pay on the vehicle, my company can reclaim al the VAT and every car expense is deductible in my company expenses. These financial and tax benefits compensate for the higher price of the car and the bigger gasoline budget. In my "car"live I always wanted to own a V8 with no turbo's...so if I want to do this then I can not wait for to many years to buy one. These engines are a dying breed

My daily work vehicle does around 11.000miles a year with 50% slow city traffic and 50% highways. But which car would you choose and why? Which one is the most reliable, most fun, better drivers car and better all round daily vehicle. Yes; I know....I should testdrive both of them

What is the realistic MPG of the C63 AMG...? Somewhat the same as a e90 M3 V8 I presume? I lived with a borrowed e90 M3 for a week and the MPG of the car is something I could live with. The e90 M3 is a nice and fun car...but it's not an estate and I did not like the M-DKG transmission in city traffic. I also found that the M3 V8 was only enjoyable when driving fast.

Costs?
Any idea about the estimated annual maintenance cost of the C63 AMG (without insurance and tax)?


RS4 B8
Last week I did a testdrive with a RS4 B8... I rather liked the car. Without RS logo's it looked rather understated and low profile. I think the RS4 B8 looks awesome from outside and inside. I love the look! The optional blacked-out sport exhaust also sounds rather nice. Normally I don't like auto gearboxes; but the S-tronic box was feeling rather good...it was nice in auto mode and nice when shifting the gears myself. The shifts are fast enough and felt really good on public road. This car will be my daily driver and not a track car so it does not have to be the fastest shifter and it also will be my first car with an automated transmission... There is no other choice with the RS4 B8 and C63 AMG. If they had a manual version I would look for that one.

Suspension and dynamic steering?
The RS4 suspension felt ok in comfort mode (the other settings are to hard for the street). The dynamic steering was the biggest disappointment of the complete car. In comfort it was to soft and slow, automatic was not great and in dynamic it was to artificial heavy. I don't know if it's something you need to get used to...but the steering feel was the baddest thing of the RS4. Also almost every used RS4 I have found on the market has the dynamic steering option...and even so...who says the standard RS4 steering has a better steering feel? Opinions?

Handling?
The quattro handling was like the car was on rails and grip levels were awesome on a typical autumn day. This also means the car is a little boring and does not give you that many driver thrills or involvement when driving at normal speeds... My Z4M and 325i are more fun and lively when driving at the same speeds and they are slower cars then the RS4.


C63AMG estate
Normally I'm not a big fan of Mercedes. The only cars they have that I like or maybe consider owing (if I had the money) are SLS black series, AMG GTS and the previous C63 AMG estate (the model I'm now looking at). Honestly; a couple of years a go I could never think I would even consider buying a Mercedes. For me; a Mercedes was something for really old people
I never liked them and I always found them boring to drive and to look at... Personal opinion! But the set-up of this model of C63 AMG has something that somewhat appeals me and I like the look more then any other generation of "normal" Mercedes model.

Price
Another point the C63 AMG has over the Audi RS4 B8 is that the used C63 AMG estate car's are cheaper on the used car market then a similar Audi RS4 B8. Prices of C63 AMG are lower because the engine is a real tax killer and less people want to buy them these days. The all new C63 AMG model is already available on the market where that the new RS4 will probably be launched in 2017. I live in Belgium so I will probably one in my country or pay a visit to Germany to find the car I want.

Look
From a visual point of view I think the C63 estate looks good and I can live with it. It's a typical Mercedes image with a more sporty look. It's certainly not ugly, but IMO the RS4 B8 looks better and is more understated for my eyes. The RS4 looks awesome, the C63 looks good. The facelift interior of the 2012 model also looks ok. But there is more then looks and numbers that define a lovely car for me. That M156 6.2L engine is awesome, the sound it makes and the idea of that big engine in a daily car is amazing and out of this world. I also love the simplicity of the total C63 AMG package. But how does a C63 feel in normal traffic...is it an entertaining car at every speed? On paper it sound great and looks like a way less complex car then the RS4 with al his setting that never hit a real 100% sweet spot.

Transmission?
Biggest question I ask myself and also the biggest downside in online reviews is the transmission... How is this MCT 7-speed transmission from the facelift C63 (modelyear 2012)...? How is it in auto mode and how fast and intuitive is it when shifting the gears yourself?

Brakes?
Is there a big difference in braking power between the normal C63 brakes and the red colored brakes from the optional performance package? What is exactly the difference between those two brake set-ups and is it worth looking for a car with the PP for the brake difference? If I would buy a C63 AMG I would definitely want the optional LSD or if not on the car I will get an aftermarket quaife LSD. The Performance Package also increases the power…but 336 kW (457 hp) on a daily street car is already more then enough for me… More power from the PP is nice, but it does not sound as a must have to me.

Options?
Are there any must have options on the C63 AMG facelift model? For me personally it seems that I would like; Harman Kardon surround sound, front and rear parking sensors, auto lifting trunk, 19" wheels (looks nicer), full leather, COMAND system with Media interface, LSD (or aftermarket Quaife).

Is there an option to get the chrome window surrounds and front grill in black and not chrome? Some kind of shadowline package? The AMG Performance Suspension seems only useful on track so not for my street usage. It seems that both suspension have the same ride height?


Yes; I need to testdrive a C63 AMG to find some things out for myself and I will do that...but opinions and thought of other owners and/or petrolheads are already welcome

 

[Red C220]

Just buy what you want, you're over thinking this entire situation to justify buying something that you don't really need, but want.

If you want it and can afford it, buy it.

My only addition to this wise response is that an LSD is an absolute necessity on any car with a 6.2 litre AMG engine. Everything else is just personal choice.

 

[V8andTurbos]

Buy a C63 wagon. Get it Eurocharged and quaife'd. Get the secondry cats deleted and u won't look back.

Best na V8 our there. MCT is quick and the handling is meaty. Ride can be a bit harsh but it's all a compromise

 

[nikh]

I was contemplating an RS4 too, but having read the RS246 forums on a regular basis, it would come across that the RS4 is a temperamental beast at times and would require much more up keep, more so than the scheduled services... But it could be the way the RS246 forum is setup and used.

I think the C63 looks a lot more sophisticated too, but man do I dig the RS4's aggressive arches!

 

[developer]

but man do I dig the RS4's aggressive arches!

Me too - wake up AMG .

 

[Puzzle]

I was set to by a B8 RS4 until I saw, heard and drove my C63S.

Audi is a good car but the 63 is an event each time I get in it.

 

[Franzino]

Just buy what you want, you're over thinking this entire situation to justify buying something that you don't really need, but want.

If you want it and can afford it, buy it.

My only addition to this wise response is that an LSD is an absolute necessity on any car with a 6.2 litre AMG engine. Everything else is just personal choice.

Offcourse I will buy whatever car I want and can afford
100% correct nobody really needs a AMG or RS4 or any car with a lot of horsepower for street use. People who buy these car's do it for the fun of driving something special. Before I buy any car; I always search for a lot of info and I give it a lot of thought, especially when buying my first Audi or Mercedes that still cost a reasonable amount of money… Like I said I intend to keep my cars a long time…so I need to buy the right one for me.

 

[Franzino]

Buy a C63 wagon. Get it Eurocharged and quaife'd. Get the secondry cats deleted and u won't look back.

Best na V8 our there. MCT is quick and the handling is meaty. Ride can be a bit harsh but it's all a compromise

Eurocharged? Do you mean supercharged? The C63 AMG engine will stay original and I have no plans of modifying my future daily car only the Quaife diff (if there is no LSD on the car). Just out of curiosity, the secondary cats delete create more noise I presume?

Is the MCT really that good and quick when manually changing the gears?

 

[Franzino]

I was contemplating an RS4 too, but having read the RS246 forums on a regular basis, it would come across that the RS4 is a temperamental beast at times and would require much more up keep, more so than the scheduled services... But it could be the way the RS246 forum is setup and used.

I was under the impression this was more the case with the older RS4 B7 then the newer B8.

 

[Franzino]

I was set to by a B8 RS4 until I saw, heard and drove my C63S.

Audi is a good car but the 63 is an event each time I get in it.

Did you drive both? What is the big difference in your opinion (good and bad)…and what about the difference in gearbox?

 

[Franzino]

Anyone who can answer my questions about the difference in brakes between normal brakes and the red ones from PP. Is the difference in stopping power a lot? Is it worth it and what is exactly the technical difference between the two brake set-up (besides the color).

Is there an option to get the chrome window surrounds and front grill in black and not chrome? Some kind of shadowline package?

The AMG Performance Suspension seems only useful on track so not for my street usage. It seems that both suspension have the same ride height and that the performance suspension is only harder.

What is the realistic average MPG of the C63 AMG when driven in city + highways..?

Any idea about the estimated annual maintenance cost of the C63 AMG? I'm already used on maintaining a BMW M. I presume it will be around the same maintenance costs.

 

[AMGeed]

Eurocharged? Do you mean supercharged?

Eurocharged are the company that have remapped many AMG's on this forum through one of their agents. For a small outlay (around £600 I believe, a C63 can gain around 50bhp and have the limiter lifted)
That, along with a quaife and secondary cat removal/gutting is a far as most people go. Unless you go down the expensive route of supercharging the car.

 

[Puzzle]

Did you drive both? What is the big difference in your opinion (good and bad)…and what about the difference in gearbox?

In the end no!.

I drove a friends B7 which was impressive. I had 'problems' arranging a test drive in a B8 as my local dealer would not deviate from their set test routes and I wanted to drive my local roads. This was only an additional 10 miles to the test.

Essentially the dealers put me off the product.

Not a lot of help to you though.

Either car shall be great though.

 

[R1NGA]

Having had nearly 20 years in Audi S and RS products, I too am now am AMG owner (SLK55) and have to agree with the comment about the AMGs being more of an 'event' for each and every journey you take. Sure, it won't tackle even a mild gradient on summer tyres in the snow and the Audi drivers will drive smugly past without a worry, but at least you can have more fun, more of the time (or fit winters and still get out there!).

Specifically, the 4.2 RS engine in the B7 and B8 (little changed between the two in terms of engine basics) are Direct Injection and suffer badly from carbon deposit build-up in the induction side of things, as EGR throws its dirty flotsam everywhere and coats most of the induction route in power-sapping gunge. Most B7 RS4 dyno at about 380bhp for a good one (corrected flywheel reading), but higher mileage cars that haven't been 'cleaned up' can drop as low as 320bhp. Torque on those things is only 317lbs/ft, which is pretty low by comparison to an M156.

That M156 makes about 450bhp all day, everyday and at least 100-120lbs/ft more torque than the Audi could ever muster. This is the biggest advantage in everyday driving and is what ultimately for me now makes an AMG the car of choice for daily driver. Whilst I admit that the SLK55 is not the latest or greatest (it's also my wife's car), I am very likely to go looking for a late model C63 '507' before prices go off the scale.

The Audis can be great at the track and I have done many 1000's of miles in them round the Nordschleife, where they excel if you are after speed, safety and all-weather ability. The C63 less so, but of course driven with some consideration to the risks, would still be outstanding and very safe (I drive my Morgan 3-Wheerler there quite often, so maybe my perspective is slightly different.....).

AMG PP brakes are the same size as the stock versions, but are what they call 'composite' which means semi-floating discs on separate bells, instead of being solid as stock. They can take more heat without complaint. But around town you'd not notice the difference. PP also brings the LSD, slightly uprated suspension and tasty steering wheel, so worth it overall in my view (our SLK55 is PP).

Just my view however

 

[Robby122]

C63 all day long, mine does 12-14 mpg town 20s on motorway. Mind you smile per gallon in off the charts.

 

[Franzino]

Having had nearly 20 years in Audi S and RS products, I too am now am AMG owner (SLK55) and have to agree with the comment about the AMGs being more of an 'event' for each and every journey you take. Sure, it won't tackle even a mild gradient on summer tyres in the snow and the Audi drivers will drive smugly past without a worry, but at least you can have more fun, more of the time (or fit winters and still get out there!).

Every car I have or had in the past had an extra set of smaller alloy wheels with winter tyres… Even so; quattro will have better grip in rain or snow then RWD… I have driven RWD car's petrol engines almost my entire life so no surprises there… Still no other car had the engine and the torque figures as the C63

Specifically, the 4.2 RS engine in the B7 and B8 (little changed between the two in terms of engine basics) are Direct Injection and suffer badly from carbon deposit build-up in the induction side of things, as EGR throws its dirty flotsam everywhere and coats most of the induction route in power-sapping gunge. Most B7 RS4 dyno at about 380bhp for a good one (corrected flywheel reading), but higher mileage cars that haven't been 'cleaned up' can drop as low as 320bhp. Torque on those things is only 317lbs/ft, which is pretty low by comparison to an M156.

I thought the carbon build-up problem was only on the B7… Even so; if they clean out the carbon…doesn't this mean the problem is solved and the engine is back to normal?

That M156 makes about 450bhp all day, everyday and at least 100-120lbs/ft more torque than the Audi could ever muster. This is the biggest advantage in everyday driving and is what ultimately for me now makes an AMG the car of choice for daily driver. Whilst I admit that the SLK55 is not the latest or greatest (it's also my wife's car), I am very likely to go looking for a late model C63 '507' before prices go off the scale.

The Audis can be great at the track and I have done many 1000's of miles in them round the Nordschleife, where they excel if you are after speed, safety and all-weather ability. The C63 less so, but of course driven with some consideration to the risks, would still be outstanding and very safe (I drive my Morgan 3-Wheerler there quite often, so maybe my perspective is slightly different.....).

Torque is indeed nice on the daily street…to much torque on the other hand can be annoying and a handful (especially on track)… But like I said before; I have no intention of taking the C63 or RS4 on track…for trackdays and for pure "manual shifting" driving pleasure I still have my Z4M. I adore the Nurburgring and I have driven + 200 laps on it. Every car I have has to take at least one lap at the ring… If I buy a RS4 or C63 or….then indeed they will do one lap their and that's is

AMG PP brakes are the same size as the stock versions, but are what they call 'composite' which means semi-floating discs on separate bells, instead of being solid as stock. They can take more heat without complaint. But around town you'd not notice the difference. PP also brings the LSD, slightly uprated suspension and tasty steering wheel, so worth it overall in my view (our SLK55 is PP).

Just my view however

In Germany and Belgium; the LSD is not included in to the AMG PP on the facelift 2012 model. If I'm correct; The LSD is an extra stand alone option on the 2012 C63 AMG.

If the brake caliper and disc size of the standard brakes are the same as the red PP brakes you can probably fit the composite items aftermarket as an upgrade (if the standard discs are worn out)? Is it only the front brakes or also the rear ones that are different? When I read composite brakes I thought carbon ceramic discs…but this seams not the case.

Off course it would be nice to find a good C63 example with the PP package, but it's only the power increase, harder suspension (not needed on street), better brakes and the alcantara steering wheel. The better brakes is something I would like to have, but in time they can probably be fitted aftermarket if the standard ones need replacing. Also; if I would buy a C63 I would likely fit an Quaiffe LSD in time if the stand alone LSD option is not selected by the previous owner.

 

[Franzino]

I am very likely to go looking for a late model C63 '507' before prices go off the scale.

In my opinion…the next years the price of the C63 AMG with V8 are still going to drop….these cars are not that exclusive and the C63 AMG is the AMG model that sold the most units up to date. Maybe one day in 5 years time when there are less and less good C63 examples to find and people are thinking; "damn that C63 AMG with the V8 was something great and unique in automotive history"…then maybe demand and prices will rise. The 507 model will then be the most desirable that's probably true… But in the near future; I don't see that happen as what is happening with every Porsche GT3

 

[Franzino]

I recently test drove a C63 AMG Estate (2012 model with 19" wheels and performance pack)… I really liked the way it drives and the way it steers. The steering feel is so much better in the C63 then in the RS4 B8. The steering feel is absolutely 100% perfect for my taste. The C63 AMG feels smaller, lighter and more nimble then a RS4 B8. The C63 feels more fun at lower speeds. It feels more a live! You will have to go really fast and drive like a nutter to get the same sense of speed and/or sensation in a RS4 B8. The RS4 drives as on rails, the grip is awesome and the car is really safe… This makes the car for me a little boring and also more difficult to know when exactly you are reaching the end of that endless RS4 grip.

In real live and in wet, slippery conditions the RS4 will always be faster then a C63. The grip levels are way up there…but honestly I don’t really care that the C63 will be slower or needs to be driven slower in these conditions. The engine in the RS4 is great, but the 6.2 engine in the C63 is awesome…! The C63 feels like a mini supercar and all that torque is great to have on the street. Probably not so on track, because you will have issues when going on the power early and you will lose traction really fast in certain corners. But this is a street car for me and my Z4M is there for track fun, fast times and old school manual driving pleasure. I would never buy an AMG or even a RS4 for track work…this is where a BMW M shines or even better with Porsche GT cars.

You will need to learn how to fully exploit and behave with this car…the C63 challenges you. For me personally a full black (no chrome / no grey) RS4 B8 Avant with 20” wheels looks awesome from the outside. I really love the look! The inside of the cabin also looks better then the interior of the C63 (facelift). For me the outside of the C63 looks like something of a granddad car in combination with a boy racer tuning look. I’m not a big fan of all that chrome and I hope there is a way to get it replaced or to get it blacked out like the shadowline of BMW M-models. No chrome will improve the look and lower the granddad image for me…

In my opinion a Mercedes is for older people (+50) and I’m not even 40. As said before; the RS4 B8 looks awesome, the C63 AMG looks ok and I can live with it… It’s not that it’s ugly. It’s just doesn’t make my hear beat faster when looking at it. On the other hand; starting that engine and driving it will make your heart beat overtime!

Besides the known high gasoline bills and the small gas tank the only real downside is the seven-speed MCT-7 gearbox. In auto mode it’s ok and rather good, but in manual mode and shifting gears yourself it’s slower then all the modern dual clutch systems and slower then the S-tronic of the RS4. The S-tronic gearbox of the RS4 B8 is in my opinion the best of both worlds… In manual mode it’s better/faster/more involving then the MCT-7 from the C63 and almost the same as the fast M-DKG (BMW e90 M3). When driving in city traffic in auto mode the S-tronic is better then the M-DKG (I don’t like the auto mode of the M-DKG in traffic). The MCT-7 gearbox is also better in auto mode in city traffic then the M-DKG.

The big difference is when shifting manually and then the C63 is the worst of the 3 above gearboxes (S-tronic and M-DKG)… It’s a pity and if there existed a C63 AMG manual I would buy that one…but on the other hand if there was a e91 BMW M3 Wagon then I would buy that one instead. You can’t have it all to be perfect, but you can try to get close to what you like best. Between the C63 Wagon and RS4 B8 my preference goes to the C63 AMG… If the C63 AMG had a S-tronic gearbox, no chrome and a little nicer interior and exterior it would be 100% perfect…on the other hand; are there cars that are 100% perfect? My Z4M is certainly not 100% perfect, but I love it…..and it has no chrome!

 

[vealige]

Watch this Chris Harris pretty much sums it up. After driving RS4's they are lovely cars but I do find Audi's a bit "Dull" they seem to lack drama in comparison to AMG's or similar. I've always been of the opinion if a car is too perfect it almost lacks soul....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HYdVXmYA-w

 

[Franzino]

Watch this Chris Harris pretty much sums it up. After driving RS4's they are lovely cars but I do find Audi's a bit "Dull" they seem to lack drama in comparison to AMG's or similar. I've always been of the opinion if a car is too perfect it almost lacks soul....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HYdVXmYA-w

I really like Chris Harris and his opinion about cars… I think he and I share the same feelings and opinions on what makes a car great…Only difference is that I'm not so into drifting
But it's me that wants to buy the car, so I needed to drive them myself to see if I like them. For instance; Chris Harris rather liked the new M3/M4 and when I drove it I was nog overwhelmed by that car. Did not like the sound, power delivery, steering feel...

Indeed I have watched the following You Tube videos of him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HYdVXmYA-w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjCsJkFSCzI

I read a lot of reviews… This last one sums it up as the same feeling I had after driving the RS4 (with dynamic steering) and a C63 AMG (with performance package).