New house builds to have car chargers

[st13phil]

I thought most oft he UK was a TN-C or TN-C-s system with a bond earth neutral, are you referring to the rural areas?

The TT earthing requirement was noted in the document I linked to in post #9 in the Technical Considerations section, on page 12: "Electric vehicle charge points will typically require a TT Earthing system designed and built by the installer, this Earthing system will ensure that the users and installation remains safe during a fault scenario."

 

[st13phil]

While I have reservations over the suitability of BEV's to supersede ICE-powered personal transport, to some extent that's a lost battle as global policy makers have decreed that they are the direction of travel.

The point that I have been making in this thread is that with that decree comes responsibility to ensure that suitable infrastructure to support the modal shift from ICE-power to BEV's is made available, yet there is precious little evidence that there is a plan (let alone any action) to take responsibility for the big, difficult, investments that private companies cannot be relied upon to make.

Providing sufficient electrical power where it needs to be is not something that can be achieved by piecemeal uncoordinated actions, and the existing infrastructure is woefully inadequate to support the ballooning demand. On current evidence, we are heading for disaster.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Providing sufficient electrical power where it needs to be is not something that can be achieved by piecemeal uncoordinated actions, and the existing infrastructure is woefully inadequate to support the ballooning demand. On current evidence, we are heading for disaster.

Typo: You wrote "ballooning demand," rather than "ballooning supply."

The regulators are pushing the car manufacturers to make BEV's, but there's little evidence that consumers are crying out for £40k EV hatchbacks.

250,000 BEV's sold so far. Just another 34,000,000 ICE vehicles to be replaced in the UK.

It will take a few decades to have a real impact.

Technology repeatedly shows that the next big thing quickly gets surpassed by new tech, whether it's the landline, Betamax, Blockbuster video, Nokia, the IBM desktop, working in city centres, or even the very old fashioned big Supermarket shop once a week.

The Consumer isn't driving the move to BEV - it's Tesla star-struck Regulators.

 

[Petrol Pete]

This is what these chargers in 'every house' will end up as . New Technology will probably make them obsolete before they are completed.

 

[st13phil]

Typo: You wrote "ballooning demand," rather than "ballooning supply."

The Consumer isn't driving the move to BEV - it's Tesla star-struck Regulators.

Fair comment. As I said, this shift is being driven by global policy makers not consumers.

Technology repeatedly shows that the next big thing quickly gets surpassed by new tech

I agree, and from so many angles BEV's are the "wrong" answer so are likely to be short lived. It's instructive that previous modal shifts in transport have been driven by consumer-lead demand because the "new" was demonstrably better than the "old", whereas for the end user BEV's offer nothing - other than zero tailpipe emissions - that ICE power doesn't, but they do come with a whole lot of unwanted baggage. Arguments about "saving the planet" are all well and good, but there's no clear case that BEV's will have anything other than a miniscule impact - and that's if you look at the benefit case through rose-tinted glasses.

Just another 34,000,000 ICE vehicles to be replaced in the UK.

And therein lies another example of the dogma-driven lunacy. It makes no sense at all to change the entire personal transport parc in the timescale mandated, bearing in mind the downsides of manufacturing and the early disposal of perfectly serviceable alternatives with significant residual life.

 

[AntMB]

There's a requirement for off street parking, but sadly there isn't a requirement for you to have the room to open your doors once you're in that parking space.

 

[Markw70]

Along with car chargers I don’t know why they don’t make i mandatory for all new builds to have solar panels fitted.

 

[190]

The regulators are pushing the car manufacturers to make BEV's, but there's little evidence that consumers are crying out for £40k EV hatchbacks.

I agree, EV's are mainly focused on the relatively expensive end of the market. They won't really take off until they are priced close to IC cars. VW are indicating they will be selling an ID2 EV for £17K by 2025. If that price becomes a reality (which I doubt) it will sell like hot cakes. The price reduction depends on new battery technology so as I see it we are as ever still one step away from EV's becoming mainstream.

Volkswagen set to preview crucial ID 2 with Munich concept | Autocar

 

[Deleted member 113659]

Along with car chargers I don’t know why they don’t make i mandatory for all new builds to have solar panels fitted.

As far as I’m aware all new build homes have to have one of three: solar, ground source or wind. Solar seems to be the most popular by a long margin.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I agree, EV's are mainly focused on the relatively expensive end of the market. They won't really take off until they are priced close to IC cars. VW are indicating they will be selling an ID2 EV for £17K by 2025. If that price becomes a reality (which I doubt) it will sell like hot cakes. The price reduction depends on new battery technology so as I see it we are as ever still one step away from EV's becoming mainstream.

Volkswagen set to preview crucial ID 2 with Munich concept | Autocar

Agreed with all that, wholesale.

My "rant" (and it is) is focussed on regulators assuming and applying a set of bureaucratic requirements on home building. So, for example, homes will be built with chargers that aren't needed in the short, or long, term - because their occupants either aren't using private transport at all, or are using something different: bikes, motorbikes, or ICE vehicles.

I would be making the same noises if regulators had insisted on Cat5 cabling being incorporated in all homes a decade ago. Seemed like a good idea - the Internet was going to be a "thing." But we knew, even back then, that the tech was likely to move on.

I genuinely would love us to move to cheap EV's. I do love the idea of the tech. But I can also imagine a (Western) world with far more efficient ICE vehicles using E20 style vehicles, with far better online vehicle hailing services, and far less physical commuting and travel.

In the grand plan of things, does an EV make any difference, if we're still flying thousands of miles, "as of right," shipping goods insane distances (Chocolate from Poland), and eating carcinogenic meats from furting cows emitting CO2 ?

 

[Bellow]

If Guy Martin is to be believed we've been here before - about 100 years ago when one in three cars were electric. The rollout of filling stations killed the electric car. People wanted quick and easy re-fuelling then and still do. For those who are going to be dependent on chargers in public places the analogy is not with waiting for the person ahead of you at a filling station to finish refilling their ICE vehicle but with someone who has just taken the last parking space for an unspecified period of time.

 

[markjay]

Here's just one example of a Hackney new build development that doesn't have off-street parking. A quick surf around Primelocation will show you that new developments in Hackney don't have parking spaces.

I lived in Westminster in the 1990's. Even then, thirty years ago, it was unthinkable for new build homes to be required to have parking included. Too expensive. From memory it was something like half a million in 1990 to buy a new build two bed flat in Pimlico with under block parking - back in the day when £500k was a fair old chunk of change.

New build two bedroomed flat in Hackney - Check out this property for sale on PrimeLocation!

View attachment 118224

My colleague was advised by Hackney that the development can only go ahead with a provision in the Leases that says that the Leaseholders and tenants are not eligible for Resident Parking Permit. That, or build parking. I am guessing that there'a cause in the Leases of these buildings as well, but I don't know.

Incidentally, the high-rise social housing buildings in my area (of which they are quite a few) each have a private car park next to them for residents' use.

 

[markjay]

If Guy Martin is to be believed we've been here before - about 100 years ago when one in three cars were electric. The rollout of filling stations killed the electric car. People wanted quick and easy re-fuelling then and still do. For those who are going to be dependent on chargers in public places the analogy is not with waiting for the person ahead of you at a filling station to finish refilling their ICE vehicle but with someone who has just taken the last parking space for an unspecified period of time.

Agreed, but that's a theoretical risk. The practical reality is that it is not an issue (at least not in the areas that I intend to use).

I am checking on here from time to time:

Map of electric charging points for electric cars UK: Zapmap

UK-wide map of electric car charging points allowing EV drivers to find EV charge points and plan electric journeys to the nearest charging point.

www.zap-map.com

And the vast majority of charging points in the areas that I am checking are free almost all the time. People don't hog charging points, they just don't.

And the claim that things will get worse when more people have electric cars is again only a theoretical possibility, because such a claim contains the assumption that the growth in EV use will happen on the back of a stagnating charging network. I'd be happy to see some modelling regarding availability of charging points in future, if it makes assumptions regrading the growth in both use of EVs and the charging network.

As for filling-up at a petrol station compared to charging and EV... these comparisons are often disingenuous. Firstly, charging an EV is different to filling-up with petrol so comparing 'speeds' is focusing on only one narrow aspect. The question is whether it is more or less convenient overall.

If the nearest petrol station to you is (say) 10 or 15 minutes drive away. And you have a charging point at home (or in the street). You just got back from a long day of driving for work, you're knackered, it's' cold, dark and rainy outside (OK, that's just for dramatic effect...) and the gauge is on empty. Which is more convenient - a 20-30 minute round trip to the garage, plus 5-10 minutes refuelling, or plugging-in the car into the wall charger and putting the kettle on?

So there will be scenarios where refuelling an ICE is easier, and there will be scenarios where it isn't. Focusing on only one of the two isn't fair play

 

[markjay]

I've already pointed out the required logistics to make that viable for a mere 33 cars is nigh on impossible.
Indulge in a little historical research MJ. Research back in the days before tumble driers and shared outdoor drying spaces were the norm with individual days allocated to each resident, just how much strife was created when someone used the facility on some one else's allocated day. It only needed one resident in a block of six flats to behave thus to throw the whole arrangement into fractious unworkable chaos.
Alternatively don't research that. Just wait until tumble driers are too expensive to use and watch what happens when the fighting over the outdoor drying space kicks in. Or the fighting over the EV charging point....

So you are saying that it can't be done, and that we can't figure a way to do it, either. I'll let the engineers have their go at the problem, and we'll see how it goes. Until then, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Bellow]

If the nearest petrol station to you is (say) 10 or 15 minutes drive away. And you have a charging point at home (or in the street). You just got back from a long day of driving for work, you're knackered, it's' cold, dark and rainy outside (OK, that's just for dramatic effect...) and the gauge is on empty. Which is more convenient - a 20-30 minute round trip to the garage, plus 5-10 minutes refuelling

You'd do it on the way home - not make a separate trip for it

, or plugging-in the car into the wall charger and putting the kettle on?

Only if you have exclusive charging facilities at home - and none of your household are already plugged in.

So there will be scenarios where refuelling an ICE is easier, and there will be scenarios where it isn't. Focusing on only one of the two isn't fair play

Easier for those with home charging and a major - enforced - PITA for everyone else.

 

[Bellow]

So you are saying that it can't be done, and that we can't figure a way to do it, either. I'll let the engineers have their go at the problem, and we'll see how it goes. Until then, we can agree to disagree.

If you think this is disagreement wait until the fighting over who gets the last available charger for the next ten hours kicks off!

This involves physical activity, moving cars, cable handling, etc. And will have to be done back to back to maximise charger usage. Seriously, two separate households coordinating a switchover at say, 3.00 am?

 

[Deleted member 159894]

If you think this is disagreement wait until the fighting over who gets the last available charger for the next ten hours kicks off!

This involves physical activity, moving cars, cable handling, etc. And will have to be done back to back to maximise charger usage. Seriously, two separate households coordinating a switchover at say, 3.00 am?

Maybe our roads would benefit from motoring being a little more exclusive?

 

[ChrisHGTV]

The more i think about it the more i think we're barking up the wrong tree trying to replace ICE with an EV alternative in a like for like scenario. For me (and i think many others) having a cheap electric Twizzy type thing for local shopping, commutes and simple short distance A-B journeys would be ideal. Then an ICE for occasional long distance use. You'd get better battery life from the Twizzy thing as it would be light and simple, take up less space, be quicker to charge as it wouldnt need a large battery and would actually be quite fun. Then the ICE would be used infrequently but would come into its own when needed. Eventually the ICE could be replaced by a H cell or EV if in the future range/charging capacity supports it. That way we play to both vehicles strengths. The only downside is that's two vehicles per "household" say and all the resources issues that entails. Maybe a stretch but how about a single "composite" vehicle where you can drive just the front part and it's a small EV then you can couple it to the rear part that's ICE, like a mother ship. I think ive been working too hard today, maybe i should stop and open a bottle!

 

[Bellow]

The more i think about it the more i think we're barking up the wrong tree trying to replace ICE with an EV alternative in a like for like scenario. For me (and i think many others) having a cheap electric Twizzy type thing for local shopping, commutes and simple short distance A-B journeys would be ideal. Then an ICE for occasional long distance use. You'd get better battery life from the Twizzy thing as it would be light and simple, take up less space, be quicker to charge as it wouldnt need a large battery and would actually be quite fun. Then the ICE would be used infrequently but would come into its own when needed.

Citroen UK boss: 90% chance of imminent Ami UK launch | Autocar

More than 10,000 UK customers have registered interest in urban EV; sub-£6000 price likely

www.autocar.co.uk

Eventually the ICE could be replaced by a H cell or EV if in the future range/charging capacity supports it. That way we play to both vehicles strengths. The only downside is that's two vehicles per "household" say and all the resources issues that entails. Maybe a stretch but how about a single "composite" vehicle where you can drive just the front part and it's a small EV then you can couple it to the rear part that's ICE, like a mother ship. I think ive been working too hard today, maybe i should stop and open a bottle!

Thought you already had!

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Maybe a stretch but how about a single "composite" vehicle where you can drive just the front part and it's a small EV then you can couple it to the rear part that's ICE, like a mother ship. I think ive been working too hard today, maybe i should stop and open a bottle!

You've obviously been hanging out on the Disco Volante, the personal yacht of Emilio Largo, that billionaire as flamboyant as he is ruthless, anchored off the coast of his superb seaside villa, Palmyra. That front end uncouples from the main cabin when an "escape" is necessary....