New Mercedes face ban from British roads

[HotJambalaya]

Good old Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sh-roads-flouting-EU-rules-green-air-con.html

 

[WDB124066]

Arrogance vs Arrogance?

 

[markjay]

If I understand it correctly, then the headline is misleading - those MB cars affected can not be sold anywhere in the EU, including Germany, i.e. not just in Britain?

 

[MOCAŠ]

So MB are saying that they object to using the new gas on safety grounds (due to a potential fire risk) but only sales of the A-Class, B-Class and SL-Class will be affected. Does that mean they're already using this supposedly unsafe gas in all their other models?

 

[WDB124066]

Yes but designed into the cars layout correctly. That's the key here I think.

Maybe an oversupply in RHD cars, could be good for RHD Countries outsde the EU....

 

[grober]

Some more industry info from the states on the new refrigerant or R1234yf as you will come to know and love it as the replacement for our old friend R134a
HFO1234yf: What Does It Mean For You? - Zephyrhills, FL, United States, 33542 - AutoPro Workshop Blog post - Where Professionals Gather for Better Business

While Mercedes concern for exploding vehicles is touching it seems slightly strange in that for petrol vehicles at least I can think of a least one other fluid that's a lot more inflammable under the bonnet? Some word of it becoming a compulsory retrofit--- which is a bit worrying.

 

[st13phil]

So MB are saying that they object to using the new gas on safety grounds (due to a potential fire risk) but only sales of the A-Class, B-Class and SL-Class will be affected. Does that mean they're already using this supposedly unsafe gas in all their other models?

My understanding is that only new model platforms introduced from 2011 are currently affected, hence the reference to A- B- and SL-Class vehicles only.

 

[st13phil]

While Mercedes concern for exploding vehicles is touching it seems slightly strange in that for petrol vehicles at least I can think of a least one other fluid that's a lot more inflammable under the bonnet? Some word of it becoming a compulsory retrofit--- which is a bit worrying.

More likely the issue is with the potential presence of an inflammable gas in the passenger compartment should the heat exchanger or pipework rupture?

 

[markjay]

Well you could obviously argue that since we already have petrol under the bonnet we may as well add some Cemtex... But it does sound sensible to me to have as little as possible flammable or explosive substances in a car...?

 

[Dieselman]

Brake fluid is more of a problem than petrol.

 

[renault12ts]

Brake fluid is more of a problem than petrol.

Indeed....which is why some, but not all manufacturers, have a better way of attaching the reservoir than others. Unfortunately following a fire under the bonnet it is difficult to tell if the brake fluid was the cause or the petrol.

 

[redbaron]

Renault 5 - there was a safe car they seemed to burn after even a small bump.

 

[Will]

Perhaps it's more of a concern due to the fact that A/C components are more vulnerable in a front end collision (condensor, pipework etc), and as it's constantly under pressure it is more of a risk once damaged?

If the new gas is highly flammable and poisonous then it's a reasonable concern IMO.

 

[Dieselman]

I wonder what the new gas is, is it butane based?

 

[GMInsite]

It seems Mercedes and Volkswagen and right to be concerned and at least they are contributing ideas and ways around using this new 'green' gas.

 

[Dieselman]

Some more industry info from the states on the new refrigerant or R1234yf as you will come to know and love it as the replacement for our old friend R134a
HFO1234yf: What Does It Mean For You? - Zephyrhills, FL, United States, 33542 - AutoPro Workshop Blog post - Where Professionals Gather for Better Business

While Mercedes concern for exploding vehicles is touching it seems slightly strange in that for petrol vehicles at least I can think of a least one other fluid that's a lot more inflammable under the bonnet? Some word of it becoming a compulsory retrofit--- which is a bit worrying.

Interesting points from that article.

"Drawbacks? The first that comes to mind is cost. R134a costs about $10 per kilo to manufacture. HFO1234yf will cost about $100 per kilo. Yeah, you read that correctly. HFO1234yf will cost 10 times more to make. Second on the list is the fact that it is classified as mildly flammable. Temper your opinion for a moment. According to information presented at the MACS (Mobile Air Conditioning Society) convention this past week, it takes a high energy source to light the stuff, and even when burning it is a low energy, unstable flame. There are chemicals under the hood of your car right now significantly more flammable than this stuff,"

 

[grober]

I wonder what the new gas is, is it butane based?

Its 2,3,3,3-Tetrafluoropropene well you did ask.

2,3,3,3-Tetrafluoropropene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
excerpt
Although the product is classified slightly flammable by ASHRAE, several years of testing by SAE proved that the product could not be ignited under conditions normally experienced by a vehicle. In addition several independent authorities evaluated the safety of the product in vehicles and some of them concluded that it was as safe to use as R134a, the product in use in cars today. In the atmosphere, HFO-1234yf degrades to trifluoroacetic acid,[8] which is a mildly phytotoxic[9] strong organic acid[10] with no known degradation mechanism in water. In case of fire it can release highly corrosive and toxic hydrogen fluoride.

Now hydrogen fluoride is exceedingly nasty stuff but R134a contains just as many Fluorine atoms 4 so I imagine its capable of producing similar toxic products in a fire. 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which makes me wonder if there are not other aspects to this??

 

[Dieselman]

Which makes me wonder if there are not other aspects to this??

Like it costs ten times as much...

 

[grober]

Like it costs ten times as much...

And Honeywell and DuPont hold all the patents for its manufacture.

 

[Dieselman]

I'm just looking outside now thinking, I hope my A/C works well...