New petrol and diesel car sales will be 'banned from 2030'

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Direct democracy in action. They were concerned about post pandemic economic recovery and taking the fact that Switzerland represents only 0.1 % of world emissions into account the majority made a pragmatic decision. Not setting a great example to the world perhaps but I suspect they don't much care about that.
@190 Short term thinking in action (understandable though) - Do we pay a little now or a lot more in decades to come? That's the way it should be framed.

This recent report is a sobering read (although I suspect those who don't believe climate change is real would prefer to ignore the long term risks and would like to "consume" as normal indefinitely)

"Climate change poses the biggest long-term threat to the global economy. If no mitigating action is taken, global temperatures could rise by more than 3°C and the world economy could shrink by 18% in the next 30 years. But the impact can be lessened if decisive action is taken to meet the targets set in the Paris Agreement, Swiss Re Institute’s new Climate Economics Index shows. This will require more than what is pledged today; public and private sectors will play a crucial role in accelerating the transition to net zero."

"In a severe scenario of a 3.2°C temperature increase, China stands to lose almost one quarter of its GDP (24%) by mid-century. The US, Canada and the UK would all see around a 10% loss. Europe would suffer slightly more (11%), while economies such as Finland or Switzerland are less exposed (6%) than, for example, France or Greece (13%)."
 
Somewhat ironic given that the Swiss, probably the most car-averse nation there is, are so big on “wellness” etc

Dissapointingly short sighted, but I guess it’s just typical selfish human behaviour. Lets face it, if we as a species weren’t as selfish and destructive as we are, we’d not be having this discussion.

I don’t think we deserve to survive really, time for a big reset so evolution can have another bash at it.
 
Direct democracy in action. They were concerned about post pandemic economic recovery and taking the fact that Switzerland represents only 0.1 % of world emissions into account the majority made a pragmatic decision. Not setting a great example to the world perhaps but I suspect they don't much care about that.
Ah the Swiss- famous for Toblerone, guarding the Pope and holding the jackets in any fight. ;) A breakdown of the voting which was a pretty close run thing. Interesting that the major urban Cantons voted for the motion----being "at the sharp end" of air pollution may give a different perperspective of course - Basel for example.
 
Somewhat ironic given that the Swiss, probably the most car-averse nation there is, are so big on “wellness” etc
Given the closeness of the vote, my feeling is that is is not the Swiss saying 'no' but rather saying 'not yet'.
 
RELATIVELY CHEAP, SIMPLE, WELL CONSTRUCTED EV----OBVIOUSLY VAG NOT MAKING ENOUGH MONEY ON THEM! :(
@grober correct. That's actually the real reason they were going to stop making them by end of this year. Not much profit in city cars, EV or otherwise (when compared to larger models with more tech)
 
@Dickster Well, work is underway to make EVs as easy and quick to fill up as a diesel/petrol car. The work from companies like StoreDot is impressive, with a goal of recharging an XFC battery in 5 minutes. Granted, that's not coming tomorrow, or even in 2 years time, but my point is that people around the globe are working on all sorts of emerging technologies, and technology evolves, often more rapidly than we realise. Just because something is not possible today, doesn't mean that's the case forever.

Some people are able to convert their classic ICE to EV today (although it tends to be costly) but again, there are companies working on ways to bring the cost down over time.

You can refuel a Hydrogen EV in less than 5 minutes today, if you can find a refueling station, (quite a lot in Germany already. I think that says something). Why they dont push this more and start to develop ways of creating a more cost effective infrastructure is a mystery, from a consumer point of view its a no brainer.
 
You can refuel a Hydrogen EV in less than 5 minutes today, if you can find a refueling station, (quite a lot in Germany already. I think that says something). Why they dont push this more and start to develop ways of creating a more cost effective infrastructure is a mystery, from a consumer point of view its a no brainer.
@Tonygw

Why don't they push hydrogen cars more? Hmm, first of all, hydrogen fueled cars are less efficient than battery EVs, in terms of the total energy losses. See this graphic.

most-efficient-automobiles_b6908511-8003-4538-88e7-a165dfa40107.png

Yes, Germany's government has invested in hydrogen but government policy vs what manufacturers actually do is another thing entirely.

"France and Germany have driven the region’s effort to build a world-leading industry based on the most abundant element in the universe, a pillar of the EU’s plan to achieve carbon neutrality by 2050. Together they have pledged a combined €16bn to hydrogen power generation technologies, the largest direct public investment in the field by EU countries.

Their carmakers, however, remain unconvinced. VW, the world’s second-biggest by sales, has all but abandoned its hydrogen plans.

German rival Mercedes, which invested in hydrogen for decades to no avail, quietly shelved its last passenger car fuel cell project last year, while BMW maintains only a toehold in the technology.

France’s PSA, which has bet heavily on electric vehicle technology, also remains deeply sceptical. Carlos Tavares, the outspoken CEO of the recently formed Stellantis group resulting from the merger of Fiat Chrysler with PSA, even suggested to the FT that 'most of the people who have pushed for the hydrogen-powered cars are the ones who are late in the electric vehicles'."

Daimler stopped working on hydrogen passenger cars but now believe it could be a fuel for commercial vehicles like trucks. Others also believe that hydrogen has a future, but it will be for situations where electrification is difficult, such as trucks or even ships.
 
@Tonygw

Why don't they push hydrogen cars more? Hmm, first of all, hydrogen fueled cars are less efficient than battery EVs, in terms of the total energy losses. See this graphic.

View attachment 114556

Yes, Germany's government has invested in hydrogen but government policy vs what manufacturers actually do is another thing entirely.

"France and Germany have driven the region’s effort to build a world-leading industry based on the most abundant element in the universe, a pillar of the EU’s plan to achieve carbon neutrality by 2050. Together they have pledged a combined €16bn to hydrogen power generation technologies, the largest direct public investment in the field by EU countries.

Their carmakers, however, remain unconvinced. VW, the world’s second-biggest by sales, has all but abandoned its hydrogen plans.

German rival Mercedes, which invested in hydrogen for decades to no avail, quietly shelved its last passenger car fuel cell project last year, while BMW maintains only a toehold in the technology.

France’s PSA, which has bet heavily on electric vehicle technology, also remains deeply sceptical. Carlos Tavares, the outspoken CEO of the recently formed Stellantis group resulting from the merger of Fiat Chrysler with PSA, even suggested to the FT that 'most of the people who have pushed for the hydrogen-powered cars are the ones who are late in the electric vehicles'."

Daimler stopped working on hydrogen passenger cars but now believe it could be a fuel for commercial vehicles like trucks. Others also believe that hydrogen has a future, but it will be for situations where electrification is difficult, such as trucks or even ships.
Good info.

I wonder if it is enough to halt the posters who insist that hydrogen is the future and no one else can see it?
 
I would like to see more development of hybrids so that they really work efficiently. I'm particularly impressed with the Honda eHEV system used in various models. It's so clever half the motoring journalists that report on it clearly don't understand how it works, not helped perhaps by Honda describing it as a CVT when it's nothing of the sort..

It's effectively a 2 pedal automatic but does not have a gearbox, only a single speed gear reduction which every EV has and a clutch. It has a very efficient Atkinson cycle IC engine but most of the time this is only used to charge the battery. At town speeds drive is from one electric motor while another motor generator takes care of starting, braking regeneration and charging the battery form the IC engine. Only when the car is up to cruising speeds is the IC engine directly connected to the driven wheels via a clutch and the single speed gear reduction. The result is zero or very low emissions around town and genuinely exceptional economy, not least due to the reduction in losses compared to any other sort of conventional gearbox.

To me it's impressive, elegant engineering because they have used computer control to produce something so mechanically simple. Toyota's CVT hybrid is vastly more complex by comparison.

ehev.JPG
 
@Tonygw

Why don't they push hydrogen cars more? Hmm, first of all, hydrogen fueled cars are less efficient than battery EVs, in terms of the total energy losses. See this graphic.

The inconvenient detail that is omitted is that assuming 'renewable' is a bit of a manipulation of the truth.

The requirement for more generating capacity and contingencyt against the weather is forgotten by most headline statements on renewable.

And this isn't going to be helped by other green policies such as moving away from gas boilers for home heating.

If they don't come to terms with this I think it might be advisable to install a household diesel generator by 2030 (a) because there will be problems with the grid at times and (b) it's likely that diesel will still be widely available for commercial vehicles.
 
I would like to see more development of hybrids so that they really work efficiently. I'm particularly impressed with the Honda eHEV system used in various models. It's so clever half the motoring journalists that report on it clearly don't understand how it works, not helped perhaps by Honda describing it as a CVT when it's nothing of the sort..

It's effectively a 2 pedal automatic but does not have a gearbox, only a single speed gear reduction which every EV has and a clutch. It has a very efficient Atkinson cycle IC engine but most of the time this is only used to charge the battery. At town speeds drive is from one electric motor while another motor generator takes care of starting, braking regeneration and charging the battery form the IC engine. Only when the car is up to cruising speeds is the IC engine directly connected to the driven wheels via a clutch and the single speed gear reduction. The result is zero or very low emissions around town and genuinely exceptional economy, not least due to the reduction in losses compared to any other sort of conventional gearbox.

To me it's impressive, elegant engineering because they have used computer control to produce something so mechanically simple. Toyota's CVT hybrid is vastly more complex by comparison.

View attachment 114558
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The inconvenient detail that is omitted is that assuming 'renewable' is a bit of a manipulation of the truth.

The requirement for more generating capacity and contingencyt against the weather is forgotten by most headline statements on renewable.

And this isn't going to be helped by other green policies such as moving away from gas boilers for home heating.

If they don't come to terms with this I think it might be advisable to install a household diesel generator by 2030 (a) because there will be problems with the grid at times and (b) it's likely that diesel will still be widely available for commercial vehicles.
@Dryce That's an interesting perspective.

I'm curious, do you believe that Graeme Cooper, National Grid’s Project Director – Transport Decarbonisation, who said this back in Feb 2020 in response to "Can the UK energy grid really cope with a huge increase in the number of electric vehicles being plugged in for charging?", is talking nonsense then?

"With the first of these, the energy element, the most demand for electricity we’ve had in recent years in the UK was for 62GW in 2002.

Since then, due to improved energy efficiency such as the installation of solar panels, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16 per cent.

Even if the impossible happened and we all switched to EVs overnight, we think demand would only increase by around 10 per cent. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range of manageable load fluctuation."
 

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