New petrol and diesel car sales will be 'banned from 2030'

SW18

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@Doodle Ok. So let's say the government changes their minds in 2030 about battery electric vehicles as you forecast (after a decade of investing in battery factories, charging infrastructure and more)

What will they change their minds about, in your opinion? Will they conclude that zero emission (at the tailpipe) vehicles makes air quality worse vs petrol/diesel cars? Or you envisage another conclusion?

Regarding the promotion of diesel cars by a previous UK government. They knew diesel had issues for air quality back then but chose to ignore that.

'Mr Brown brought in a sliding scale for car tax or vehicle excise duty (VED), to make it cheaper for cars with lower emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2), a greenhouse gas which contributes to global warming. This resulted in lower VED rates generally for diesel cars, which tend to be more fuel efficient. But they emitted greater quantities of other pollutants harmful to health, nitrogen oxides and particulates.

The records confirm that ministers and civil servants in the Labour government were well aware that diesel pollution damages air quality (even if perhaps they did not appreciate the full extent). But officials preparing the 2000 Budget argued against higher tax for diesel cars "so we are not seen as being overly harsh on diesel users".

Advice from the Treasury's tax policy section presented to ministers stated: 'Relative to petrol, diesel has lower emissions of CO2 but higher emissions of the particulates and pollutants which damage local air quality. A diesel supplement is necessary so that we do not create incentives for people to choose diesel vehicles over similar petrol models in order to attract a lower VED rate.'

But their concern was how this supplement would be perceived: 'Presentationally, this should be seen as ensuring fair treatment of petrol and diesel, rather than as a penalty on diesel users.'

The officials therefore rejected imposing larger supplements on diesel cars which would have a greater deterrent effect, concluding 'we would prefer the smaller £10 supplement, so we are not seen to be 'penalising' diesel vehicles.'"

Link to article
We should have gone with the approach used by other EU countries (including Germany and NL) which was that diesel cars were taxed higher but the fuel was taxed lower so it’s cheaper at the pumps. This incentivises high-mileage drivers (i.e. motorway users) to buy diesel as the high mileage more than cancels out the higher road tax. Lower mileage drivers went for petrol. Thus the right fuel was applied to the right use cases and urban pollution was mitigated.
 

raspy

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Change is happening in a big way...I'm excited by the possibilities, especially with Yasa's technology.

"Mercedes-Benz maker Daimler plans to invest more than 40 billion euros ($47 billion) between 2022 and 2030 to develop battery electric vehicles (EVs), and be ready for an all-electric car market by the end of that period.

Outlining its strategy for an electric future, the German luxury carmaker said on Thursday it would, with partners, build eight battery plants as it ramps up EV production, and that from 2025 all new vehicle platforms would only make electric cars.

'We really want to go for it ... and be dominantly, if not all electric, by the end of the decade,' Chief Executive Ola Källenius told Reuters, adding that spending on traditional combustion-engine technology would be 'close to zero' by 2025.

However, Daimler stopped short of giving a hard deadline for ending sales of fossil-fuel cars.

Some carmakers like Geely-owned Volvo Cars have committed to going all electric by 2030, while General Motors Co says it aspires to be fully electric by 2035. 'We need to move the debate away from when you build the last combustion engine because it’s not relevant,' Källenius said. 'The question is how quickly can you scale up to being close to 100% electric and that’s what we’re focusing on.'

Daimler’s announcement comes just over a week after the European Union proposed an effective ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2035, aiming to speed up the switch to zero-emission EVs as part of a broad package of measures to combat global warming.

Ahead of the EU’s announcement, carmakers had announced a series of major investments in EVs. Earlier this month, Stellantis said it would invest more than 30 billion euros by 2025 on electrifying its line-up. Daimler said that as of 2025, it expects electric and hybrid electric cars to make up 50% of sales, earlier than its previous forecast that this would happen by 2030. The carmaker will unveil three electric platforms - one to cover its range of passenger cars and SUVs, one for vans and one for high-performance vehicles - that will be launched in 2025.

Daimler is also acquiring British firm YASA Limited to help develop high-performance electric motors.

The company said it would build out 200 gigawatt hours (GWh) of battery cell capacity. Four of its new battery plants will be in Europe and one in the United States.

Daimler said it would announce new European partners for its battery production plans soon.

The EU has been pushing hard to build out battery capacity to counter China’s dominance of battery production.

Rival Volkswagen AG plans to build half a dozen battery cell plants in Europe.

Daimler said that as part of its electrification strategy it would build a battery recycling plant in Kuppenheim, Germany, which would start operations in 2023."

Link to article


Regarding the aquisition of UK startup, Yasa, the blurb on their website states;

"Most of the electrification industry still relies on radial electric motors. Radial motors are based on legacy technology that’s more than 50 years old. As such they offer a limited roadmap to greater efficiencies, limiting vehicle range and dampening consumer adoption of electric vehicles.

At YASA, we believe realising the full potential of electrification will require new, more efficient powertrain solutions.

Based on our next-generation axial-flux technology, we make the world’s most efficient electric powertrain solutions.

Our electric motors and controllers deliver the greatest efficiencies and highest power densities in class for the smallest size and weight, opening up dynamic new market opportunities for automotive and aerospace manufacturers."

Link to Yasa Website
 

poormansporsche

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Don't know what the problem is myself.

There's nothing us Brits like better than 1, moaning and 2, queuing.

Surely EVs help to give us what we like :)
 

ChipChop

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Don't know what the problem is myself.

There's nothing us Brits like better than 1, moaning and 2, queuing.

Surely EVs help to give us what we like :)
As demonstrated in the Shmee150 videos where he moans about how c**p electric cars are compared to his ICE cars and has to queue while waiting for a poxy charger to be free or reach a decent speed. :thumb:

 

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Don't know what the problem is myself.

There's nothing us Brits like better than 1, moaning and 2, queuing.

Surely EVs help to give us what we like :)
Thankfully, there are still a few people in this country, who rather than spend their precious time moaning, grumbling and ranting, prefer to use their time building innovative products and services (not just in mobility, but in other sectors like healthcare etc too)
 

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Thankfully, there are still a few people in this country, who rather than spend their precious time moaning, grumbling and ranting, prefer to use their time building innovative products and services (not just in mobility, but in other sectors like healthcare etc too)
Have you noticed that those in bold spend zero time announcing their own solutions?
 

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Thankfully, there are still a few people in this country, who rather than spend their precious time moaning, grumbling and ranting, prefer to use their time building innovative products and services (not just in mobility, but in other sectors like healthcare etc too)

Arguably there aren't enough people moaning and holding the government and local governemt to account on the mess they are creating.

Yes so it's good new that a manufacturer announes billions in investment.

Just remember that if that is higher than investment would otherwise have been then it's ominous that investment has to be recouped.

So we collectively have a huge bill coming - charging infrastructure, capital investment in manufacturing, and power generation.

Now if we didn't already have decent reliable cars then that would be investment to create lovely new products - but this investment is not down to better products - just different ones - and it's not being driven by independent consumer demand because benefits of the products attract those consumers - but by government enforcement.

And that investment? Well it might do us all better if it was directed to other sectors at this time.
 

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I saw an article recently that stated the car makers have told the government that if they want to achieve the ban on ICE cars by the end of the decade they must build 2.3 million public charging points. By 'they' I assume they mean the government.

I am no mathematician but that leaves them 3097 days (working weekends and bank holidays) to install 2300000 charge points.

That is 742 per day.

Either

  • The report is complete bull$hit
  • My calculator needs a new spring in it
  • The whole idea of no more ICE cars by 2030 is complete bull$hit.
I have been out on the roads for an hour this morning and have not seen a single new charging point being installed , they must be starting somewhere else in the country. 🤷‍♂️
I read something similar ages ago Pete. It was pointing out the extremely high cost of installation.

Personally, rather than provide what is clearly required, i think we will be forced out of our cars and onto public transport in future. A bit ironic really given the amount of investment in the road network.
 

optimusprime

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Well with fuel loaded up with ethanol it will soon damage so many older cars n turn it will thin them out pretty fast.,,this is just what the top brass want . >>>>>>Lookout electric car owners your going to take the brunt of it ..
 

davymead

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Thankfully, there are still a few people in this country, who rather than spend their precious time moaning, grumbling and ranting, prefer to use their time building innovative products and services (not just in mobility, but in other sectors like healthcare etc too)
Let’s hope.
Given the gargantuan amount of cost and disruption to deliver vehicle electrification, I’ll wager those clever and innovative people will also be looking hard at any sign of an affordable alternative.
 

190

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Fuel is traditionally expensive at motorway services and would be a distress purchase for me so I always plan to make sure it doesn't happen. It's no surprise then that EV charging will be the same especially given 80% of EV chargers at motorway services are run by one operator. That means very little competition and no incentive to keep the price within sight of reasonable. How on earth was this allowed to happen.

CMA investigates dominance of Electric Highway chargers | Autocar
 

Wolfie1

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I reckons the easiest option for electric vehicles is to keep an old diesel generator (1 that is simple and will just run forever) in your boot and when you park somewhere start it up and plug it into your car to charge it up. Wont ever have to worry about finding a place to charge no matter where you go, why has nobody thought of this before!
 

m80

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I reckons the easiest option for electric vehicles is to keep an old diesel generator (1 that is simple and will just run forever) in your boot and when you park somewhere start it up and plug it into your car to charge it up. Wont ever have to worry about finding a place to charge no matter where you go, why has nobody thought of this before!
Because it takes up valuable luggage space.
It needs to go on the roof.
 

Sweetooth

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Or tow it on a trailer!!
 
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markjay

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I reckons the easiest option for electric vehicles is to keep an old diesel generator (1 that is simple and will just run forever) in your boot and when you park somewhere start it up and plug it into your car to charge it up. Wont ever have to worry about finding a place to charge no matter where you go, why has nobody thought of this before!

Not entirely a new e idea though..... that's essentially how cars with 'range extender' petrol engine work.
 

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Not entirely a new e idea though..... that's essentially how cars with 'range extender' petrol engine work.
They looked promising but seem to have morphed into hybrids with the emphasis more on ICE than EV.
Possibly the choices of ICE for the range extender part hastened their demise. Some were so ridiculous I was left wondering which currency the engineers behind them were paid in - LSD?
 
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markjay

markjay

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They looked promising but seem to have morphed into hybrids with the emphasis more on ICE than EV.
Possibly the choices of ICE for the range extender part hastened their demise. Some were so ridiculous I was left wondering which currency the engineers behind them were paid in - LSD?

The concept lives-on with the LEVC TX. There's 5,000 of them in London. I wonder if the VN5 will be a success as well?
 

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The concept lives-on with the LEVC TX. There's 5,000 of them in London. I wonder if the VN5 will be a success as well?
I had to Google them but get the idea. It seems more ICE biased. As a range extender what I thought would work well is with an ICE RE rated at the power required to cruise at around 70mph and battery power for acceleration. Thus configured it could cruise indefinitely within its petrol tank range. I think though, that brought it into serial hybrid territory and they aren't as efficient as parallel hybrid in that cruise scenario.

Neatly circumvented by Ricardo who built a Freelander as a test mule with pure EV capability and once accelerated to speed an ICE was deployed to directly drive the road wheels. Where it differed from others was that it had no gearbox for the ICE - only a fixed ratio compatible with cruising speed. Not sure the exact specifics of the EV part but I think it was still available at cruising speed and charging was by plug in and regenerative braking. Only a test mule but Ricardo said it was both efficient and very cheap to build.
 

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Caught an interesting programme this morning which relates to this topic. Three engineers talking about ships/battery technology, Solar power and Wind power (blade the span of a jumbo anybody?!)

Clean Energy

On the subject of room for batteries on board ship, why can't they simply use batteries as part of the building materiel? I seem to recall that you can generate electricity using salt water (or did I dream that?)
 

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