New petrol and diesel car sales will be 'banned from 2030'

[markjay]

MJ you should start your own IONIQ 5 thread lest your EV experience gets lost in the noise of this more general topic?????

Fair point, I won't bang on about it here any more

 

[Dryce]

Some figures from my first day with IONIQ 5....

Drove home from the dealer, 15 miles journey.

10 Miles Motorway driving down the M1, at 70mph (not ideal speed for economy for EV). 5 Miles slow progress in London traffic, roadworks and temporary traffic lights and what-have-you. It was a hot day today, the aircon was blasting throughout the journey, including when stuck in traffic. 30-minute journey door-to-door.

Got home, the battery is showing 93% charge. The onboard computer is showing average consumption of 3.3m per kWh. The battery capacity is 73kWh. Based on this, the actual range when driving in similar conditions is 241 miles.

I can live with that.

70mph on the motorway isn't the most ideal speed for economy - but it's not a bad speed either.

The back of my envelope suggests that 7% capacity reduction and 15 miles means a notional range of 214 miles - assuming you can let the car get down to 0%. My eperience of range anxiety in an EV is that it gets kind of nervy one you drop to 20 miles or 10% as your options for charging / contingencyx drop and the car is getting to the point of starting to nag you. So the notional range of 214 becomes more like 180.

So running about town and the suburbs staying close to charging it makes sense.

That weekend trip to a hotel .... with a plan to take the scenic route and arrive late .... well you might start to have to plan a bit.

That day you have to make some unexpected trips?

And yes - your 3.3M per kWh of battery capacity ..... not quite the same given the official numbers you quoted in another thread as the amount of power consumed to charge the battery.

So switch off the bushy tailed bright eyed confirmation bias of day one and lets see how this *objectively* works out.

So 15 miles represents 5KWh additional - on the oft stated average of 8-10kWh average household consumption you just added what - a notional net 50%+ to your household consumption ... and that's without factoring in the gross figure of what it actually takes to get the battery charged by that amount. Just 15 miles on an optimistic number does that.

So let's see where energy prices for households end up over the next two or three years as the price curve starts to ramp.

 

[Doodle]

Interesting that the Ioniq literature quotes the net battery capacity - most companies quote the gross and neglect to mention that you can't tap into the last 10%. Kudos to those industrious people at Hyundai.

 

[markjay]

MJ you should start your own IONIQ 5 thread lest your EV experience gets lost in the noise of this more general topic?????

Fair point, I won't bang on about it here any more

70mph on the motorway isn't the most ideal speed for economy - but it's not a bad speed either.

The back of my envelope suggests that 7% capacity reduction and 15 miles means a notional range of 214 miles - assuming you can let the car get down to 0%. My eperience of range anxiety in an EV is that it gets kind of nervy one you drop to 20 miles or 10% as your options for charging / contingencyx drop and the car is getting to the point of starting to nag you. So the notional range of 214 becomes more like 180.

So running about town and the suburbs staying close to charging it makes sense.

That weekend trip to a hotel .... with a plan to take the scenic route and arrive late .... well you might start to have to plan a bit.

That day you have to make some unexpected trips?

And yes - your 3.3M per kWh of battery capacity ..... not quite the same given the official numbers you quoted in another thread as the amount of power consumed to charge the battery.

So switch off the bushy tailed bright eyed confirmation bias of day one and lets see how this *objectively* works out.

So 15 miles represents 5KWh additional - on the oft stated average of 8-10kWh average household consumption you just added what - a notional net 50%+ to your household consumption ... and that's without factoring in the gross figure of what it actually takes to get the battery charged by that amount. Just 15 miles on an optimistic number does that.

So let's see where energy prices for households end up over the next two or three years as the price curve starts to ramp.

All good points.

Some further info:

1. Firstly, thinking about it, the battery wasn't 100% charged when I got the car, they did charge it overnight, but they said they drove it in the morning before I collected it in the afternoon. I didn't check the percentage before departure, so I don't know how much I actually used during the journey, which may explain the estimated range discrepancy between the 7% and the 3.3kWh calculations. Also, the 3.3kWh figure is overall 'from the start', and the car had 22 miles on the clock when I collected it, which I have no idea how they were driven. This evening after a brief drive the car was showing 92% and 403km range (I messed-up the screen so it reverted to Km....).

2. The car has 4 driving modes: Eco, Normal, Sport, and Snow. I drove in Normal. Also, I kept to 70 on the motorway. And used the aircon. I am aware that these parameters aren't optimised for low energy consumption, but I wanted to see how the car is performing when I drive it 'as I normally would', rather than me bending-over-backwards to accommodate the car (which I may well yet have to do if running low on battery....).

3. I was always dubious about EV manufacturers' range claims, a colleague at work has a Model X and the range figures aren't realistic. So when starting my search, I was looking for a car with an advertised range of ~300 miles, on the premise that I'll probably get 200 miles easily in normal driving (and without leccy-saving acrobatics). The ID.4 has a range of 312 miles, while the IONIQ 5 had a range of 289 miles, combined urban and extra-urban (the figures are specific to the model variants I was considering). The IONIQ 5 also has an advertising range of 366 in city-only driving and some reviewers on YouTube managed to achieve that. However, I am still somewhat sceptic and my bar is currently set on achieving 200 miles by driving 'normally' (without using 'one-pedal' Eco mode, or pre-warming the battery, or not opening the windows, or switching off the aircon, etc).

4. I insured the car with LV, and was pleasantly surprised to learn that the policy included free roadside charging in the event that the car runs out of battery. I wasn't expecting that, so it nice to have, but hopefully I won't need it.

5. Apologies to gruber, but you did ask.......

 

[Dryce]

Interesting that the Ioniq literature quotes the net battery capacity - most companies quote the gross and neglect to mention that you can't tap into the last 10%. Kudos to those industrious people at Hyundai.

To be fair on them their Ioniq hybrid is the only hybrid that I have driven that (IMO) actually worked properly.

 

[Doodle]

The Ioniq 5 has certainly piqued my interest, even after my disastrous time with a Renault Zoe. However, my commute is now limited to once or twice a month to our Cambridge office, which means a round trip of 250 miles with no real opportunity to charge while I'm there. My return to EVs is probably still some time off.

 

[markjay]

The Ioniq 5 has certainly piqued my interest, even after my disastrous time with a Renault Zoe. However, my commute is now limited to once or twice a month to our Cambridge office, which means a round trip of 250 miles with no real opportunity to charge while I'm there. My return to EVs is probably still some time off.

These are the locations of Ionity 350kW charging stations in the area:

The claimed charging time at 350kW is 18 minutes for charge from 10% to 80%. So a 10-15 minutes stop will sort you out for that journey.

Not ideal, granted, also taking into account a (say) 10-15 minutes drive to get to the charging station if it's not on the exact route that you are taking. So understandably there's no particular motivation for you to swap from ICE to EV.

But in the context of this discussion, my point is that if you had to use an EV, it wouldn't have meant any particular hardship, and would be perfectly manageable with an addition of 15-30 minutes to your journey time once or twice a month to the Cambridge office.

In fact, most likely you would have managed the entire 250 mikes round trip on a single charge, but even assuming that you didn't want to risk getting back home with just 5% battery left, charging along the route isn't really an insurmountable hurdle.

 

[grober]

Fair point, I won't bang on about it here any more

All good points.

Some further info:

1. Firstly, thinking about it, the battery wasn't 100% charged when I got the car, they did charge it overnight, but they said they drove it in the morning before I collected it in the afternoon. I didn't check the percentage before departure, so I don't know how much I actually used during the journey, which may explain the estimated range discrepancy between the 7% and the 3.3kWh calculations. Also, the 3.3kWh figure is overall 'from the start', and the car had 22 miles on the clock when I collected it, which I have no idea how they were driven. This evening after a brief drive the car was showing 92% and 403km range (I messed-up the screen so it reverted to Km....).

2. The car has 4 driving modes: Eco, Normal, Sport, and Snow. I drove in Normal. Also, I kept to 70 on the motorway. And used the aircon. I am aware that these parameters aren't optimised for low energy consumption, but I wanted to see how the car is performing when I drive it 'as I normally would', rather than me bending-over-backwards to accommodate the car (which I may well yet have to do if running low on battery....).

3. I was always dubious about EV manufacturers' range claims, a colleague at work has a Model X and the range figures aren't realistic. So when starting my search, I was looking for a car with an advertised range of ~300 miles, on the premise that I'll probably get 200 miles easily in normal driving (and without leccy-saving acrobatics). The ID.4 has a range of 312 miles, while the IONIQ 5 had a range of 289 miles, combined urban and extra-urban (the figures are specific to the model variants I was considering). The IONIQ 5 also has an advertising range of 366 in city-only driving and some reviewers on YouTube managed to achieve that. However, I am still somewhat sceptic and my bar is currently set on achieving 200 miles by driving 'normally' (without using 'one-pedal' Eco mode, or pre-warming the battery, or not opening the windows, or switching off the aircon, etc).

4. I insured the car with LV, and was pleasantly surprised to learn that the policy included free roadside charging in the event that the car runs out of battery. I wasn't expecting that, so it nice to have, but hopefully I won't need it.

5. Apologies to gruber, but you did ask.......

Start your new thread and post a link to it here instead of replying. That way we get the benefit of your real world experience rather than the negative conjecture of others?

 

[Doodle]

These are the locations of Ionity 350kW charging stations in the area:

The claimed charging time at 350kW is 18 minutes for charge from 10% to 80%. So a 10-15 minutes stop will sort you out for that journey.

Not ideal, granted, also taking into account a (say) 10-15 minutes drive to get to the charging station if it's not on the exact route that you are taking. So understandably there's no particular motivation for you to swap from ICE to EV.

But in the context of this discussion, my point is that if you had to use an EV, it wouldn't have meant any particular hardship, and would be perfectly manageable with an addition of 15-30 minutes to your journey time once or twice a month to the Cambridge office.

In fact, most likely you would have managed the entire 250 mikes round trip on a single charge, but even assuming that you didn't want to risk getting back home with just 5% battery left, charging along the route isn't really an insurmountable hurdle.

The only one that isn't a massive detour is the Biggleswade one, and to rely on just one charger for public charging is asking for trouble. Not sure what others there are on route but equally chargers on the M25 and M4 are far more likely to be busy.

That ties into an element of not wanting to stop (slightly arbitrary as it's only a 20 minute stop in theory, but real nevertheless). It's a very long day, generally 14hrs from door to door and I just want to get home.

That said, as the network gets more reliable and range increases further it'll cease to be an issue.

 

[markjay]

The only one that isn't a massive detour is the Biggleswade one, and to rely on just one charger for public charging is asking for trouble. Not sure what others there are on route but equally chargers on the M25 and M4 are far more likely to be busy.

That ties into an element of not wanting to stop (slightly arbitrary as it's only a 20 minute stop in theory, but real nevertheless). It's a very long day, generally 14hrs from door to door and I just want to get home.

That said, as the network gets more reliable and range increases further it'll cease to be an issue.

I was referring specifically to the availability of Ionity's 350kW super-charges. There's plenty of availability of 50Kw and 150Kw charges along the route, though charging will obviously take proportionally longer.

In any event, I fully agree that in your circumstances, and given the current state of affairs with battery tech and chargers, an EV would not be your preferred option.

My point, however, was more generic, and related to the concern raised here that ICE drivers will be effectively 'taxed off the road'. I used your circumstances as an example to show that there are many who would be somewhat inconvenienced by a switch to EV but this wouldn't amount to an actual hardship for them.

Furhermore, I would argue (and I have no proof of it) that a significant proportion, perhaps even the majority, of those objecting to EVs will in fact be somewhat inconvenienced by the swap, rather then it having a detrimental effect on them.

Of course there are those for whom an EV is simply not an option, and for them we absolutely need to find a solution until EV tech catches-up (e.g. an exemption and fuel supply guarantee etc).

But, again, to my mind the actual number of people who would be 'taxed off the road' unless adequate provisions are out in place for them is actually quite small, while, again, the majority of those objecting now will in effect only be inconvenienced, and only for the short term.

This is my personal opinion, and not meant as a dig at any of the forum members.

One thing I do agree with, is that solutions should be done with proper consultation rather than 'steamrolling' - even if the government believes that they have all the right answers, people need to be brought on-board rather than just be told what to do and then taxed or fined if they don't.

 

[davymead]

One thing I do agree with, is that solutions should be done with proper consultation rather than 'steamrolling' - even if the government believes that they have all the right answers, people need to be brought on-board rather than just be told what to do and then taxed or fined if they don't.

This is my problem with the governments crusade in a nutshell.
I have no problem whatsoever with the fact the we need a solution to the spiralling levels of pollution in this country, and I’m pretty sure that would be the same for most folks on this forum. What sticks in my throat is a never ending stream of people with the common sense of a fly, threatening the population with seemingly increasing punitive taxation if they don’t spend relatively huge chunks of their hard earned on an EV in the not too distant future.

 

[markjay]

This is my problem with the governments crusade in a nutshell.
I have no problem whatsoever with the fact the we need a solution to the spiralling levels of pollution in this country, and I’m pretty sure that would be the same for most folks on this forum. What sticks in my throat is a never ending stream of people with the common sense of a fly, threatening the population with seemingly increasing punitive taxation if they don’t spend relatively huge chunks of their hard earned on an EV in the not too distant future.

To clarify, I support EVs on their own merit (and have taken the plunge myself), but this does not mean that I condone everything that the government (or TfL) does.

 

[markjay]

The only one that isn't a massive detour is the Biggleswade one, and to rely on just one charger for public charging is asking for trouble. Not sure what others there are on route but equally chargers on the M25 and M4 are far more likely to be busy.

That ties into an element of not wanting to stop (slightly arbitrary as it's only a 20 minute stop in theory, but real nevertheless). It's a very long day, generally 14hrs from door to door and I just want to get home.

That said, as the network gets more reliable and range increases further it'll cease to be an issue.

Just an update on this one.

Having driven ~10 miles around town last night and today, the stats have recovered.... it is now showing 90% battery, 251 miles range left, and 4.6m/kWh for the in-town driving.

So its seems that the car is most efficient in city driving, and not at its best doing 70mph on the motorway.

Based on the above, the car will probably do on a full charge just shy of 300m in town, or a bit over 200m of motorway driving. This is with the car set to 'Normal' mode, and all convenience and other features used as normal (heating or cooling, lights and wipers as needed, etc).

So if you were to embark on the twice monthly journey to Cambridge with this car, you'll have to do one of the following:

- Charge at some point in Cambridge or along the route, with a fast ot slow charger as available - which will slow you down, obviously.

- Make the round trip without charging, and driving normally, arriving home with single-digit percent battery charge - or in other words sailing close to the wind, which is not ideal.

- Make the round trip without charging, but adjust your driving for maximum efficiency - drive at 60mph on the motorway instead of 70, put the car in Eco mode (less-powerful acceleration, and regenerative braking at maximum, or possibly even set the car to 'one pedal' drive), and don't use the heating or cooling. You'll probably get home with a comfortable 10-15% charge, but you'll be accommodating the car rather than the other way around, which defeats the purpose.

So in your circumstances, an ICE car - probably a Diesel - will serve you better than an EV, clearly. The only advantage that an EV will have (apart for 'saving the planet' etc) is that the cost of electricity will be much cheaper than that of the fuel, but then when it comes to business trips convenience often trumps costs.

But, the reason I am posting this follow-up, is to show that - hypothetically speaking - if you were forced to use an EV instead of ICE, utilising current battery tech and current charging facilities, you'd still be able to make it work, albeit with some inconvenience.

 

[Doodle]

FWIW, I've discovered I drive right past a Supercharger at the P&R on the south western side of the city so that improves matters considerably assuming Elon goes ahead with opening the network to others. I predict much wailing from Tesla owners though, having to share with "lesser" models

At the moment I'm doing the run in the Cupra (there's another 12-18 months on the lease), and returning about 40mpg which is pretty reasonable for a 300hp hot hatch. As you say, if given no choice an EV would be viable with a certain level of inconvenience, I'm very much aware I've become an edge case with this new job. The lack of use is now at the point where even my ideas of an W212 E63 next are starting to look decidedly profligate given how much it'd be sitting around, let alone the £40k for an Ioniq 5/Model 3/used Model S. A couple of grand's worth of well-tended Volvo 960 for battering round the motorways is starting to look like a logical plan, or maybe a newer 129?

 

[Dickster]

I was referring specifically to the availability of Ionity's 350kW super-charges. There's plenty of availability of 50Kw and 150Kw charges along the route, though charging will obviously take proportionally longer.

In any event, I fully agree that in your circumstances, and given the current state of affairs with battery tech and chargers, an EV would not be your preferred option.

My point, however, was more generic, and related to the concern raised here that ICE drivers will be effectively 'taxed off the road'. I used your circumstances as an example to show that there are many who would be somewhat inconvenienced by a switch to EV but this wouldn't amount to an actual hardship for them.

Furhermore, I would argue (and I have no proof of it) that a significant proportion, perhaps even the majority, of those objecting to EVs will in fact be somewhat inconvenienced by the swap, rather then it having a detrimental effect on them.

Of course there are those for whom an EV is simply not an option, and for them we absolutely need to find a solution until EV tech catches-up (e.g. an exemption and fuel supply guarantee etc).

But, again, to my mind the actual number of people who would be 'taxed off the road' unless adequate provisions are out in place for them is actually quite small, while, again, the majority of those objecting now will in effect only be inconvenienced, and only for the short term.

This is my personal opinion, and not meant as a dig at any of the forum members.

One thing I do agree with, is that solutions should be done with proper consultation rather than 'steamrolling' - even if the government believes that they have all the right answers, people need to be brought on-board rather than just be told what to do and then taxed or fined if they don't.

I agree with most of that but do feel that a lot of people are likely to be priced off the road.

Genuine question, do you not think that the government has steamrolled this?

 

[markjay]

I agree with most of that but do feel that a lot of people are likely to be priced off the road.

Genuine question, do you not think that the government has steamrolled this?

Yes. But this is not my only criticism of the government (and TfL). I think that EVs are great, but they are only part of the solution. People driving less, and better public transport, are the bits I am missing.

 

[ChrisHGTV]

Yes. But this is not my only criticism of the government (and TfL). I think that EVs are great, but they are only part of the solution. People driving less, and better public transport, are the bits I am missing.

The public transport aspect i can see as being the achilles heel and a deal breaker of any move to get people out of cars, whether ICE or EV. How we get it so wrong compared to our Continental neighbours i don't know but certainly public transport in Italy, Germany, NL seems to work really well. Clean, efficient and cheaper than driving. On the other hand our approach:

https://www.guildford-dragon.com/2021/09/05/off-peak-fares-to-waterloo-to-rise-by-staggering-27/

 

[markjay]

The public transport aspect i can see as being the achilles heel and a deal breaker of any move to get people out of cars, whether ICE or EV. How we get it so wrong compared to our Continental neighbours i don't know but certainly public transport in Italy, Germany, NL seems to work really well. Clean, efficient and cheaper than driving. On the other hand our approach:

Off Peak Rail Fares To London Waterloo To Rise By ‘Staggering’ 27%

Spot-on

 

[Doodle]

Perhaps no coincidence that both Germany and Italy's train networks are still owned by the state.

 

[m80]

Reading markjay's reports it gives me visions of another 'possibly only short term' conflict.
EV's when bought will be used for more than just Supermarket trips, people generally don't design o have a choice of cars, the multi purpose use is more efficient for many reasons.

So the inevitable increase of EV's on the dual carriageways and M'ways is going to also see an increase of those conserving battery power in the inside lane. This will be causing more HGV's to wish to pass in the middle lane, but in truth this already has an eternal increase. What it will do is choke these roads sooner and more often than w/o EV's.

We can't stop progress though it is coming.