New petrol and diesel car sales will be 'banned from 2030'

[markjay]

....I suspect we will discover too late in the day just how useful liquid (at ambient temperature and low pressure) fuels are. For road transport that advantage is hard to replace...

I think that day when batteries will replace liquid fuel in road transport, aviation, marine, agriculture, construction, and stationary engine applications is still far away.

And, at any rate, the majority of the harmful pollution from these engines does not occur under people's noses (pun intended).

The focus is currently on private vehicles, of which there are some 40m on UK roads. The key is to replace them with EVs over time, and to drive them less, much less.

 

[Bellow]

Dieselgate put the last nail in that coffin. The automotive industry scored an own-goal with that one, basically their message was the EU6 was a bridge too far for them, hence why they won't be trusted again with EU7. This has become the story of what might have been, but won't happen now.

EU7 is ridiculously savage and punitive. But the auto industry were silenced by its own dieselgate stupidity and couldn't counter EU7. It has merely tweaked its business model and instead of building slightly more expensive ICE cars is building much more expensive electric cars and pushing them upmarket at premium premium prices. From Volkswagen to Elitewagen.

 

[Bellow]

I think that day when batteries will replace liquid fuel in road transport, aviation, marine, agriculture, construction, and stationary engine applications is still far away.

There'll still be plenty fuel sloshing around (left over from making tyres for EVs) but no engines for them. A mere nine years from now ICE cars will be taken off the market. Emission regs apply to all other engines I can think of also - from hand held (eg, strimmer) upwards and never loosen.

And, at any rate, the majority of the harmful pollution from these engines does not occur under people's noses (pun intended).

But the CO2 burns up the planet - the main reason for electrification.

The focus is currently on private vehicles, of which there are some 40m on UK roads. The key is to replace them with EVs over time, and to drive them less, much less.

We could try the driving less bit right now.

 

[markjay]

...But the CO2 burns up the planet - the main reason for electrification.

One problem at a time... sadly, for now, we don't have non-carbon alternatives for many applications, intruding aeroplanes, ships, earth moving equipment etc. But the poor air quality in city centres can be fixed.

..
We could try the driving less bit right now.

True. Better and cheaper public transport will go a long way towards this goal.

 

[Dryce]

But the poor air quality in city centres can be fixed.

It can be fixed very quickly by simply changing the thresholds by which it is *sensibly* measured and judged and backing that with a practical measure to electrify buses and sorting out some sensible traffic management - even knocking down some buildings or boring some tunnels to reduce congestion.

 

[Markw70]

There’s definitely a sense of deja vu with this thread. It’s gone full circle back to the requirement of better public transport and the fact that there’s parts of the country that are seriously lacking with this, and realistically will always be so. Calling for people with no other option to somehow use their petrol / diesel car less or feel guilty for using it is not going to get your average none town or city dweller on board with the push towards EV’s.

 

[markjay]

It can be fixed very quickly ... even knocking down some buildings or boring some tunnels to reduce congestion.

Quicker than swapping to EVs?

 

[Doodle]

Nobody will need to be driving into town centres if there's no shops or facilities left to visit. Went to a relatively prominent shopping centre in the south a couple of weeks ago. Pretty much full before Covexit, I would estimated at least a third of the units (shops and entertainment) were empty and boarded up.

Looks like the high Street will be screwed either way.

 

[Deleted member 159894]

Nobody will need to be driving into town centres if there's no shops or facilities left to visit. Went to a relatively prominent shopping centre in the south a couple of weeks ago. Pretty much full before Covexit, I would estimated at least a third of the units (shops and entertainment) were empty and boarded up.

Looks like the high Street will be screwed either way.

I was at a conference 10 years ago where the death of the High St was predicted.

 

[markjay]

Nobody will need to be driving into town centres if there's no shops or facilities left to visit. Went to a relatively prominent shopping centre in the south a couple of weeks ago. Pretty much full before Covexit, I would estimated at least a third of the units (shops and entertainment) were empty and boarded up.

Looks like the high Street will be screwed either way.

True, though people don't drive into town only for shopping, there are plenty of other reasons.

 

[sjmaxwell]

Two thoughts on the electric debate:
1) disposal of used batteries in years to come will create an issue.
2) the amount of energy required to brake down a used car is phenomenal and its far greener to run a car for more than 10 years than to change it every three!

That's my two cents on the debate but electric cars are NOT as green as people make out!

 

[Bellow]

One problem at a time... sadly, for now, we don't have non-carbon alternatives for many applications, intruding aeroplanes, ships, earth moving equipment etc. But the poor air quality in city centres can be fixed.

Can't help think that ICEs could be converted to run on bio-fuels a lot more quickly than the next battery that charges as fast as everyone wants will appear. Possibly/probably more quickly than the infrastructure and generation capability to support existing EV technology can be built - let alone for faster charging batteries. But hey, ICE is melting.... because someone set the bridge on fire it is sitting on.

 

[SW18]

Seen many announcements for nice little EVS ? ????

As opposed to nice expensive EVs ?????

And how many are being pushed as company vehicles taht end up primarily being privately used and a tax benefit ?????

Yes, there are LOTS of small EVs: the car mags are packed with them and they're becoming a common sight. I'd say I now see a full EV drive by within a couple of minutes of leaving my front door, every time. People seem universally to love them.

The expensive ones are there too, of course. But since when was Volkswagen about cheap cars for the masses; the masses now have a lot more cash than they did in 1937...

It's true that many EVs are purchased for company vehicle use, but let's not forget that it was the same with diesel a few years ago: BIK favoured it too. But regular folks are now buying EVs too: as seen now 'in a VW dealer near you'!

 

[SW18]

And odd that despite buses being a major problem - and the proposed technology solutions to clean them being ineffectve in practical use they're not being banned.

Are buses not being upgraded with clean tech? In most cities with low emissions zones, the bus fleets are required to comply just like everyone else (sometimes with sunset periods given the large investment required). London was first with clean air zones and has a plan to move to NZ emissions on the whole bus fleet by 2030, with about 10% being EV so far (the taxi fleet is similar). All have been Euro VI for some years. Other cities are following suit: Oxford, Bath, Bristol...

 

[Bellow]

Yes, there are LOTS of small EVs: the car mags are packed with them and they're becoming a common sight. I'd say I now see a full EV drive by within a couple of minutes of leaving my front door, every time. People seem universally to love them.

Which companies are making them? Genuine question - not taking the proverbial. It would help me to gauge the uptake in my neck of the woods if I knew what I was looking out for.

The expensive ones are there too, of course. But since when was Volkswagen about cheap cars for the masses; the masses now have a lot more cash than they did in 1937...

That remark has my name all over it!
Not VW anymore, agreed. But the price points of EVs at the entry level has to be affordable and will inevitably be out of reach of some who can currently deal with ICE costs. Somewhere in the world I half expect China to wade in with a small affordable EV and build the supporting infrastructure also.

It's true that many EVs are purchased for company vehicle use, but let's not forget that it was the same with diesel a few years ago: BIK favoured it too. But regular folks are now buying EVs too: as seen now 'in a VW dealer near you'!

And how did that work out? (OK, I'll admit to taking the proverbial with that).

 

[SW18]

Which companies are making them? Genuine question - not taking the proverbial. It would help me to gauge the uptake in my neck of the woods if I knew what I was looking out for.

Here's a list that I have seen around, which might be most options available. The French, Germans and Asian makes seem to be all over it, the UK makes seem to be late to the party (except Vauxhall):
Citroen DS3-e
Fiat 500e
Honda E
Hyundai Kona
Kia e-Niro
Mazda MX-30
MG5 EV
MG ZS EV
Peugeot e-208
Renault Zoe
Seat e-Mii
Skoda Citigo-e
Smart EQ
Vauxhall e-Corsa
VW e-UP
VW e-Golf
VW ID3

What is an issue, though, is that all of these are all priced in the £15-30k range, so they are not competitive with ICE models in the same (or similar) ranges. That doesn't seem to be stopping people buying them, though, presumably because maintenance and fuelling costs even out the whole-life cost.

 

[markjay]

Can't help think that ICEs could be converted to run on bio-fuels a lot more quickly than the next battery that charges as fast as everyone wants will appear. Possibly/probably more quickly than the infrastructure and generation capability to support existing EV technology can be built - let alone for faster charging batteries. But hey, ICE is melting.... because someone set the bridge on fire it is sitting on.

Regardless... if change is coming, it's time to embrace it, no?

 

[Dryce]

Are buses not being upgraded with clean tech?

In principle yes. In Glasgow upgrading the buses is part of the policy for the ULEZ.

In practice the murmurings are that the upgrades don't actually work effectively within an urban traffic environment.

That would suggest they won't work in other cities.

In London they went mad with the fleet of hybrid buses - but these are AIUI expensive.

Glasgow is a wonderful example of how the mindset tries to do 'the right thing' but just makes a total hash of it. So they have empty bus lanes / corridors and poorly synchronised traffic lights causing congestion. They have created and are extending a well meaning but crazily disjoint set of cycle routes (again dedicated cycle lanes are usually empty) that further squeezes the traffic and inceases congestion. They have a long term policy that has made it very difficult to traverse the city centre (and causes congestion). Perversely they seem to want to make it difficult for private vehicles - which IMO increases congestion and consequentlial; emmissions. And the worst pollutors in the city centre are probably the buses - may of which run at low occupancy during the day (ie. big diesel engine hauling about more bus than people).

 

[Bellow]

Regardless... if change is coming, it's time to embrace it, no?

I'd rather have a bridge than leap.

 

[markjay]

I'd rather have a bridge than leap.

And given that the bridge is going.....?