New petrol and diesel car sales will be 'banned from 2030'

[mercmancdi]

Yes but the steam roller approach is nuts. Consumption is the main problem. It would be far better for the environment if we kept our ICE cars for far longer, rather than buying into EVs. The same with building developments. Architects have recently said that we should not be knocking down old buildings, and should instead renovate and re-develop the old stock. I’ve thought that for years..

The other major issue for me is the 1% of global emissions that the UK is responsible for, it’s a drop in the ocean. And it simply cannot be justified to expect us to accept these huge and expenses changes, whilst countries like China don’t give a toss.

Still, whenever there’s money involved….

Well said

 

[mercmancdi]

Can’t wait if I am still about to see the surge in electric in the evening when everyone comes home and plugs in . In some areas the grid is struggling to cope at peak times as it is. A factory on our grid has to run a massive generator from 4 to 8 every evening although now they have a large wind turbine working helps. Stops our lights dimming.

 

[davymead]

I have no doubt that clean car ownership will cost more than the current crop of ICE cars.

But then you could equally argue that house energy bills for city dwellers went up since heating by burning coal and wood became prohibited.

We know that the 'nasty' stuff is cheap. But this goes across the board. New homes could be cheaper if they didn't have to comply with current energy efficiency regulations.

And going back to cars, the running costs for Diesel cars would have been cheaper if they didn't need to have complex EU6 post treatment systems.

Etc etc. This trend has been ongoing for a while. And yes, it means that poor people now find it more difficult to warm their homes, buy a house, or drive a car, all because the 'cheap and nasty' options are now illegal.

But, again, this is not new - over the past 50 years we have been constantly raising standards and increasing prices as result - in many areas, including the Environment. So why single out the move to EVs?

I’ve not singled out the move to EV‘s Mark, no more than any move to make our lives greener. Simply IMHO, the headless, utterly ludicrous progression towards electricity shortages countrywide. Any plans or proposals put forward by this Government that I have read for our future consumption, compounded of course by their campaign to insist on us all driving EV’s, outages seem inevitable. Our future and more importantly, our children’s future is being set out by people who couldn’t run a bath, let alone our country. Your personal crusade does you credit I’m sure, mind I’m living in a clearly different environment to yourself.

 

[markjay]

Can’t wait if I am still about to see the surge in electric in the evening when everyone comes home and plugs in....

Why do you think this will be the case?

Modern EVs have a range of between 200-250 miles (motorways) and 300-350 miles (City driving). How many people's daily commute is 100 miles each way? Some, certainty, but from 'everyone'.

And at any rate, it is not recommended to charge EVs before the battery capacity goes down to 20%, so anyone trying to top-up every evening will be degrading their car's batteries.

The most likely scenario is that the majority of people will only need to charge their EV once a week, or even only every other week. Only a small part of the drivers population will max-out their EV's range every day and will need charging from 20% every evening.

Think about it differently. A modern EV will have roughly half the range on a petrol or Diesel car. How often do people fill up their cars? They don't do this all at once, because we know what happen when they do... on average, EV owners will need to charge their cars roughly twice as often as ICE car drivers. Which is definitely not 'every evening'.

As for the grid capacity... the most common home charger is 2.6kW. The more expensive home charger is is 7.4kW. A kettle uses around 2-3 kW (all be it briefly). People coming back home from work at 6pm are more likely to put the kettle on than plug in their EV. Has the grid collapsed yet?

 

[mercmancdi]

Why do you think this will be the case?

Modern EVs have a range of between 200-250 miles (motorways) and 300-350 miles (City driving). How many people's daily commute is 100 miles each way? Some, certainty, but from 'everyone'.

And at any rate, it is not recommended to charge EVs before the battery capacity goes down to 20%, so anyone trying to top-up every evening will be degrading their car's batteries.

The most likely scenario is that the majority of people will only need to charge their EV once a week, or even only every other week. Only a small part of the drivers population will max-out their EV's range every day and will need charging from 20% every evening.

Think about it differently. A modern EV will have roughly half the range on a petrol or Diesel car. How often do people fill up their cars? They don't do this all at once, because we know what happen when they do... on average, EV owners will need to charge their cars roughly twice as often as ICE car drivers. Which is definitely not 'every evening'.

As for the grid capacity... the most common home charger is 2.6kW. The more expensive home charger is is 7.4kW. A kettle uses around 2-3 kW (all be it briefly). People coming back home from work at 6pm are more likely to put the kettle on than plug in their EV. Has the grid collapsed yet?

Yes our grid could not cope in the evening without local factory using massive diesel generators, in fact some residents had claims for damages to electrical good due to a drop off and surges in power befor the generators went in.
Also cars need to improve greatly I know a delivery driver using a electric car and he can’t use the air con etc as milage drops that quick.

 

[Dickster]

https://mobile.twitter.com/dougal911/status/1443654752722694144

 

[Bellow]

And at any rate, it is not recommended to charge EVs before the battery capacity goes down to 20%, so anyone trying to top-up every evening will be degrading their car's batteries.

So that's a no to a system where the EV becomes part of the grid relieving the grid of it's worst pressure by allowing it access to the EV's battery to draw from thus the EV incurring more charge/discaharge cycles than it would otherwise experience.

The most likely scenario is that the majority of people will only need to charge their EV once a week, or even only every other week. Only a small part of the drivers population will max-out their EV's range every day and will need charging from 20% every evening.

We've thrashed this out before and the logistics are a nightmare.

Think about it differently. A modern EV will have roughly half the range on a petrol or Diesel car. How often do people fill up their cars? They don't do this all at once, because we know what happen when they do... on average, EV owners will need to charge their cars roughly twice as often as ICE car drivers. Which is definitely not 'every evening'.

As for the grid capacity... the most common home charger is 2.6kW. The more expensive home charger is is 7.4kW. A kettle uses around 2-3 kW (all be it briefly). People coming back home from work at 6pm are more likely to put the kettle on than plug in their EV. Has the grid collapsed yet?

Yes! All of them switching the kettle on at exactly 18.00 hours. Not one second before or one second later. You really believe that's what happens? Spread it out over half an hour and the demand reduces to one tenth. Altogether more plausible. But unlike recharging EVs - no one has to move their kettle when it's boiled to enable another's kettle to use the socket. And then drive around looking for somewhere to park their kettle.

 

[Deleted member 159894]

So that's a no to a system where the EV becomes part of the grid relieving the grid of it's worst pressure by allowing it access to the EV's battery to draw from thus the EV incurring more charge/discaharge cycles than it would otherwise experience.

We've thrashed this out before and the logistics are a nightmare.

Yes! All of them switching the kettle on at exactly 18.00 hours. Not one second before or one second later. You really believe that's what happens? Spread it out over half an hour and the demand reduces to one tenth. Altogether more plausible. But unlike recharging EVs - no one has to move their kettle when it's boiled to enable another's kettle to use the socket. And then drive around looking for somewhere to park their kettle.

I recall that TV viewing numbers were calculated by the drain on the grid when programmes ended and the kettle went on.

I wonder if it was made up just like the TV detector vans.

 

[markjay]

I recall that TV viewing numbers were calculated by the drain on the grid when programmes ended and the kettle went on.

I wonder if it was made up just like the TV detector vans.

And the grid survived....?

 

[markjay]

So that's a no to a system where the EV becomes part of the grid relieving the grid of it's worst pressure by allowing it access to the EV's battery to draw from thus the EV incurring more charge/discaharge cycles than it would otherwise experience.

We've thrashed this out before and the logistics are a nightmare.

Yes! All of them switching the kettle on at exactly 18.00 hours. Not one second before or one second later. You really believe that's what happens? Spread it out over half an hour and the demand reduces to one tenth. Altogether more plausible. But unlike recharging EVs - no one has to move their kettle when it's boiled to enable another's kettle to use the socket. And then drive around looking for somewhere to park their kettle.

All plausible. But at the same time, the idea that everyone every day will pluhg-in their EV to charge at same time, is unfounded.

And at any rate all EVs have a charging timer that allows the charging to occur later at night (when the tariff is lower), and it's very likely that many owners will take advantage of that.

 

[Doodle]

Yes! All of them switching the kettle on at exactly 18.00 hours. Not one second before or one second later. You really believe that's what happens?

I remember as a boy being taken on a school trip to Didcot power station. During the tour they mentioned that they had a separate gas turbine that was designed to spin up in less than a minute to provide short term generation.

It would be placed on ready alert for specific events such as major football matches or when the soaps had a big storyline, to give a boost in their exact words "when everyone went during the ad break to put the kettle on"

 

[markjay]

I remember as a boy being taken on a school trip to Didcot power station. During the tour they mentioned that they had a separate gas turbine that was designed to spin up in less than a minute to provide short term generation.

It would be placed on ready alert for specific events such as major football matches or when the soaps had a big storyline, to give a boost in their exact words "when everyone went during the ad break to put the kettle on"

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[SW18]

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For full transparency... I have (indirect) business ties with these guys.

There's also still the 1980's solution to energy peak demand: Electric Mountain - About Pumped Storage

Zero to 1GW in 16 seconds!

 

[Bellow]

All plausible. But at the same time, the idea that everyone every day will pluhg-in their EV to charge at same time, is unfounded.

True for home chargers but plausible that most (if not all - logistics complicate that) public chargers are in use at one time. That they may well be higher power ones isn't easing the grid problems and, as early adopters are more likely to be those with the ability to home charge then subsequent EV take-up will be more dependent on public charging facilities. That 6pm grab may be the reality there.

 

[markjay]

True for home chargers but plausible that most (if not all - logistics complicate that) public chargers are in use at one time. That they may well be higher power ones isn't easing the grid problems and, as early adopters are more likely to be those with the ability to home charge then subsequent EV take-up will be more dependent on public charging facilities. That 6pm grab may be the reality there.

The fast public chargers in our area are pretty much unused, since the council fitted slow chargers in the lampposts. There are two reasons for this, the first is that electricity from fast chargers is significantly more expensive (up to double the the price), the second is that parking time is limited (between 1h and 4h) so you have to go out again and move the car to another parking spot. In fact, the fast public chargers are mostly in use by LEVC (London EV taxis), presumably because for them time is money. So I don't think that fast public chargers are the best solution for city dwellers, though they will be useful for those occasions where you need a bit of juice in a hurry. Certainly the way forward for people living in flats and with only street parking, is the postlamp charging solution.

As for the 6pm rush... again, for the vast majority of owners, EVs will only need to be charged about every week or less. As said, the range is about half that of an ICE car, and at current very few people fill-up regulatly every other day.

 

[m80]

Meanwhile China have promised to start reducing emissions by 2030

Not only our lead will have caused China to commit to a reduction strategy.
Now I only have to trust that China will follow up on their commitment for it to actually mean anything other than being merely a promise.

There are going to be a lot of political changes in China's development over the next 9 years.

 

[poormansporsche]

As for the 6pm rush... again, for the vast majority of owners, EVs will only need to be charged about every week or less. As said, the range is about half that of an ICE car, and at current very few people fill-up regulatly every other day.

Would like to believe that but as the recent petrol crisis has shown that people on the whole are fecking ijuts, queuing for a hour to squeeze in £6.42 worth of petrol to their already 300 miles of range. I think you are giving the masses too much credit, all it will take is a couple of outages and the "people" will be doing the same with leccy as they are now doing with petrol.

Go figure

 

[markjay]

Would like to believe that but as the recent petrol crisis has shown that people on the whole are fecking ijuts, queuing for a hour to squeeze in £6.42 worth of petrol to their already 300 miles of range. I think you are giving the masses too much credit, all it will take is a couple of outages and the "people" will be doing the same with leccy as they are now doing with petrol.

Go figure

The difference is that short frequent charging of an EV will very quickly degrade the battery, so owners are unlikely to do that.

The recommended method of charging an EV is to wait until the battery goes down to 20%, then charge it to 80%. And, once or twice a month charge it to 100%.

So the frequent topping up technique that some ICE car owner like, just won't work with EVs.

The 20% to 80% regular 'fill up' will provide typically around 150-200 miles of real-life driving. How many cars cover this distance daily? Some, but definitely not most. As said, for the majority of the population, EVs will need to be charged only once every week or two. This is certainly the case for most city dwellers.

 

[m80]

Would like to believe that but as the recent petrol crisis has shown that people on the whole are fecking ijuts, queuing for a hour to squeeze in £6.42 worth of petrol to their already 300 miles of range. I think you are giving the masses too much credit, all it will take is a couple of outages and the "people" will be doing the same with leccy as they are now doing with petrol.

Go figure

So true.
But some how the very obvious shortage of intelligence doesn't have the masses filling up their empty vessels.
Go figure.,

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

If they don’t already, wall chargers could monitor load on the grid, and reduce charging rate or even pause charging for a period to collectively manage the load.

Also if my iPhone is smart enough to delay charging to reduce the time that it spends full charged (to improve it’s lifespan) then surely a car could do the same.

It uses artificial intelligence to predict when my iPhone will be disconnected from the charger and only charges it to 100% shortly beforehand, and not as soon as possible.

Combined with data from the grid, the same technology could be used to actively manage the load on the local and national electricity infrastructure.