New petrol and diesel car sales will be 'banned from 2030'

SW18

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If they don’t already, wall chargers could monitor load on the grid, and reduce charging rate or even pause charging for a period to collectively manage the load.

Also if my iPhone is smart enough to delay charging to reduce the time that it spends full charged (to improve it’s lifespan) then surely a car could do the same.

It uses artificial intelligence to predict when my iPhone will be disconnected from the charger and only charges it to 100% shortly beforehand, and not as soon as possible.

Combined with data from the grid, the same technology could be used to actively manage the load on the local and national electricity infrastructure.
Yep. This is the missing piece: the grid is going to get a whole lot smarter. There is big money to make for the companies that move into this space. It's just getting started.
 
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markjay

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If they don’t already, wall chargers could monitor load on the grid, and reduce charging rate or even pause charging for a period to collectively manage the load.

Also if my iPhone is smart enough to delay charging to reduce the time that it spends full charged (to improve it’s lifespan) then surely a car could do the same.

It uses artificial intelligence to predict when my iPhone will be disconnected from the charger and only charges it to 100% shortly beforehand, and not as soon as possible.

Combined with data from the grid, the same technology could be used to actively manage the load on the local and national electricity infrastructure.

True. And all modern EVs have a charging app with a timer, allowing you to set the start time and stop time, to benefit from cheaper electricity late at night. And that's just a pretty straightforward old-fashioned low-tech solution, even before applying intelligence to it.
 

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If they don’t already, wall chargers could monitor load on the grid, and reduce charging rate or even pause charging for a period to collectively manage the load.

Also if my iPhone is smart enough to delay charging to reduce the time that it spends full charged (to improve it’s lifespan) then surely a car could do the same.

It uses artificial intelligence to predict when my iPhone will be disconnected from the charger and only charges it to 100% shortly beforehand, and not as soon as possible.

Combined with data from the grid, the same technology could be used to actively manage the load on the local and national electricity infrastructure.
Throttling I believe it's called - the equivalent on a forecourt to reducing flow of petrol or diesel through the nozzle into the tank extending everyone's filling time and creating waiting queues. Meanwhile the search for the ever faster charging battery continues apace to be sold into a market where the infrastructure is inadequate.
Just how much throttling is acceptable before the car isn't recharged in time for its next journey? Or to continue its current one expediently?

'Balancing' the grid intelligently would be more effective if already charged EV were drawn from the recharged in time to a level appropriate for when next needed. This increases the charge/discharge cycles of the battery inevitably (according to common wisdom) reducing its life span. Any takers - or is the life span of the battery of more importance?
 

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May have said this before, but if I had £10K to invest medium to long term a couple of the up and coming battery tech companies must be a good punt. Personally I think we must be due something of a quantum leap in battery technology and whoever gets there first.......
 

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Throttling I believe it's called - the equivalent on a forecourt to reducing flow of petrol or diesel through the nozzle into the tank extending everyone's filling time and creating waiting queues. Meanwhile the search for the ever faster charging battery continues apace to be sold into a market where the infrastructure is inadequate.
Just how much throttling is acceptable before the car isn't recharged in time for its next journey? Or to continue its current one expediently?

'Balancing' the grid intelligently would be more effective if already charged EV were drawn from the recharged in time to a level appropriate for when next needed. This increases the charge/discharge cycles of the battery inevitably (according to common wisdom) reducing its life span. Any takers - or is the life span of the battery of more importance?
The unnecessary charge cycles will be an incentive for some people to avoid unnecessarily charging their car - if they do not want to contribute to the grid then they simply don’t plug in.

Being at or close to 100% most of the time will be an incentive for some people to plug their car in and contribute their existing charge for the benefit of others at peak periods, on the basis that they’re then prioritised when close to their “ready by” time.
 
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markjay

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Throttling I believe it's called - the equivalent on a forecourt to reducing flow of petrol or diesel through the nozzle into the tank extending everyone's filling time and creating waiting queues. Meanwhile the search for the ever faster charging battery continues apace to be sold into a market where the infrastructure is inadequate.
Just how much throttling is acceptable before the car isn't recharged in time for its next journey? Or to continue its current one expediently?

'Balancing' the grid intelligently would be more effective if already charged EV were drawn from the recharged in time to a level appropriate for when next needed. This increases the charge/discharge cycles of the battery inevitably (according to common wisdom) reducing its life span. Any takers - or is the life span of the battery of more importance?

Personally, I don't think the faster charging will be required for home chargers, but only for public chargers.

The vast majority of the population do not drive at night... the ability to charge the EV overnight on a slow home charger, or on a lamppost in the street, every few days, and using cheap electricity, will be more than adequate for most usage profiles - there's really no need for faster charging at home.

Fast charger will be required in a few public areas, for people who need some more miles quickly for an unplanned trip, and in motorway services for those on long journeys. Also some workplaces will need them, e.g. it makes sense to charge police cars and ambulance quickly rather the double the fleet to accommodate for slow overnight charging.

In short, I really don't see faster charging as the absolute goal - it's important to have it so that you can get out of a tight spot, but it's not something that most people will need regularly.

Hyundai say that you can add 100 km (~60+ miles) of range by 5 minute charging on a 350kW charger - sounds great if you're stuck, but is this really needed on daily basis? I think not.
 

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Some interesting Reuters reading today as to China producing a £3000 domestic rival in comparison to the UK’s cheapest selling EV available, namely the Skoda CITIGOe iV, at £15,000……..
‘In the first of a series of exposés of China, I described the staggering degree with which the country’s CO2 emissions are increasing as it continues to build new coal-fired energy plants.

China has 1,080 coal-powered plants, compared to just four in the UK (and Boris Johnson has pledged to end coal-power generation here by 2024).

Coal-burning power plant in Baotou, in China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region (file photo)


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Coal-burning power plant in Baotou, in China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region (file photo)
The coal-fired plants China has in the pipeline alone have a greater capacity than the entire UK electricity network.

It is coal that has enabled China to establish global dominance in vital, energy-intensive industries — steel, aluminium, plastics and cement, to name a few — where UK production has plummeted thanks to high energy costs.

Now another sector needs to be added to that list — renewable technology. Just as it once stole ‘ordinary’ industrial jobs from other countries, China is now stealing green ones, too, on a formidable scale.

So we are importing more and more green technology made as a result of burning coal from the country with the highest CO2 emissions on the planet. And sacrificing British jobs as we do so.

Renewables advocates love to brag that the cost of building wind farms is falling. One reason, it is clear, is that manufacturing them has gone to places with much lower costs, such as China’.
My interest stems in particular from a family friend who works in the wind farm industry, and fears for his future.
 
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markjay

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I think the issue is that politicians are trying to offer all things to all men (and women).

Buying green tech made by energy from coal-powered power plants in China is akin to smoke and mirrors.

The answer is very simple: we need to be prepared to consume less, drive less, fly less, etc etc.

The idea that by buying EVs we can continue and drive our cars on our congested roads as before is nonessential.

I am all for EVs (I have one myself), and as I said before EVs have the positive effect of removing harmful exhaust gasses from city centres. But banning ICE cars isn't enough - we need to have less cars, and drive them less.
 

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Personally, I don't think the faster charging will be required for home chargers, but only for public chargers.

The vast majority of the population do not drive at night... the ability to charge the EV overnight on a slow home charger, or on a lamppost in the street, every few days, and using cheap electricity, will be more than adequate for most usage profiles - there's really no need for faster charging at home.

Fast charger will be required in a few public areas, for people who need some more miles quickly for an unplanned trip, and in motorway services for those on long journeys. Also some workplaces will need them, e.g. it makes sense to charge police cars and ambulance quickly rather the double the fleet to accommodate for slow overnight charging.

In short, I really don't see faster charging as the absolute goal - it's important to have it so that you can get out of a tight spot, but it's not something that most people will need regularly.

Hyundai say that you can add 100 km (~60+ miles) of range by 5 minute charging on a 350kW charger - sounds great if you're stuck, but is this really needed on daily basis? I think not.

100% agree with this. The vast majority of the general public don't need an EV that will do 600 miles on a single charge, nor need the capability of charging said EV in 20 mins! They'll pretty much all be charged in downtime, when the user is resting (for example overnight for most of us). Because our average mileage isn't huge, you aren't going to need the capability to fast charge except in an emergency as the range of the EVs will be sufficient for a couple of days.

I probably consider myself an average user (in terms of mileage), and the EQC will be just fine. 220-240 real world range against my (maximum) commute of 96 miles round trip, so at worst I'll be charging every other day at home (when I can't charge at my sites which don't have chargers).
 
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markjay

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I charged the EV on a 5.5kW lamppost charger last night. From 30% to 80%. It took 8:33 hours, and added 140 miles. The cost was £9.55 (39.807 kWh @ £0.24 per kWh). I can live with these figures.
 
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I charged the EV on a 5.5kW lamppost charger last night. From 30% to 80%. It took 8:33 hours, and added 140 miles. The cost was £9.55 (39.807 kWh @ £0.24 per kWh). I can live with these figures.
If you don't mind me asking, how did the logistics work out?
Eg, did you drive straight to a charge point on returning home, or have to drive (then or later) to find one, what time did you commence charging, how did you know when it had got to 80% (phone app?), what did you have to do when it was at 80% (go out and unplug, move car, etc)?
 
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markjay

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If you don't mind me asking, how did the logistics work out?
Eg, did you drive straight to a charge point on returning home, or have to drive (then or later) to find one, what time did you commence charging, how did you know when it had got to 80% (phone app?), what did you have to do when it was at 80% (go out and unplug, move car, etc)?

We have Ubitricity (owned by Shell) 5.5kW charger on each lamppost in our street, so there are plenty of them.

According to car manufacturer, the optimal charging regime for maximising battery life is as follows:

- Avoid charging before the charge level drops to 30%.
- Do not allow the charge level to drop below 10%.
- Regularly charge only up to 80%.
- Once or twice a month (and before a long journey) charge to 100%.

We've got the car at the beginning of September, and since then, it only covered 170 miles to date, so we didn't need to charge it yet.

Last night I came back from the local shopping centre, and parked the car in front of the house as I normally would. I then realised two things: I was parked next to a lamppost, and the battery charge level was (finally) down to 30%. So I called Mrs MJ to come and see how the (first) charging goes.

After connecting the cable, I scanned on my phone's camera a QR code from the lamppost, which took me straight into the Ubitricity website. There's no log-in etc, it just asks for credit card details (which I selected from the mobile phone's wallet), and an email address for the receipt. That's it. The car started charging.

The car is set to stop charging at 80% (it's a configurable option on the car's instrument cluster). I checked on it from from time to time via the app, but didn't need to do anything - there are setting on the app for scheduled charging times, but it's irrelevant to me since the price per Kw is always the same on the lamppost chargers. I didn't need to move the car, I just unplugged it from the lamppost and put the charging cable back in the boot - it's still parked in the same place. I would have moved it away from the lamppost out of courtesy to other EV owners, but looking around, there were plenty of free lampposts in the street, so I didn't bother.

So in summary, it was very easy and straightforward.

One thing to note though, is that the lampposts are located next to normal parking bays, so while there are no restrictions on how long you can spend on the charger, the normal parking restrictions for the bay still apply. E.g., where the bay is pay-and-display, you have to pay for the parking (during the relevant hours) and abide by any time restrictions that may apply to that parking bay. Where the lamppost is located near a Residents parking bay, you can only park (and charge) if you have a Residents' Parking Permit (which we do).

In contrast, on the public charging points at the end of our street, anyone can park, as long as it's an EV (or Hybrid), the car is being charged, and the time restrictions for the charging bay are not exceeded (typically max 4 hours for slow chargers, and max 1 hour of fast chargers).

However, before the lamppost chargers were fitted in the area (about two years ago), it would have been more difficult - i.e., if I parked in the charging bay at the end of the street, I would need to remember to move the car to another spot after 4 hours max in order to not hog the charging point (and in order to not get a ticket). Still doable, but with the lamppost chargers it's really simple - I just park the car in the street as I normally would, albeit next to a (free) lamppost.
 
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UK energy crisis: Electric trains ditched for diesel as green power costs skyrocket 200%​

ELECTRIC trains are being ditched for diesel alternatives as the price to power them is said to have skyrocketed 200 percent in a worrying step backwards during a global energy crisis.​

Rail freight operators are now reportedly being forced to halt their electric locomotives and revert back to dieseltrains in a move set to increase carbon emissions and journey times. Logistic firms have said soaring wholesale energy prices and a boost to track access charges has made electric, low-carbon trains impossible to run at an affordable cost. The move comes as the COP26 climate summit approaches where world leaders will meet to discuss their climate goals, and it is likely to put Britain in a weaker position.
A Rail Freight Group spokesperson said: “The current significant increase in the wholesale cost of electricity for haulage means that some operators have had to take the regrettable decision to temporarily move back to diesel locomotives.

“A 200 percent increase in electricity costs for each train cannot be absorbed by the operators, or customers, and so necessary action is being taken to ensure that trains can continue to operate delivering vital goods across the country.
Hopefully short lived.
 

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Thanks MJ.
There is a potential vulnerability I see though in the situation where after re-charging the car has to be moved either to comply with parking regulations or to free the charger for another car and that is if you consumed alcohol at home during the recharging period. I'd even be wary about merely disconnecting the cable if it involved having the car keys (or equivalent) on my person given how easily a DD conviction can be obtained merely by being present with the keys.
Not a deal breaker but still potentially an unwelcome infringement on what can be done in the home for some.
 
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Thanks MJ.
There is a potential vulnerability I see though in the situation where after re-charging the car has to be moved either to comply with parking regulations or to free the charger for another car and that is if you consumed alcohol at home during the recharging period. I'd even be wary about merely disconnecting the cable if it involved having the car keys (or equivalent) on my person given how easily a DD conviction can be obtained merely by being present with the keys.
Not a deal breaker but still potentially an unwelcome infringement on what can be done in the home for some.

Agreed, when it comes to using the dedicated charging points.

As for the lamppost charging, moving the car after the charging has completed is optional... as I said, it's a matter of courtesy to other EV owners, and if you are over-the-limit then you just leave the car where it is. No need to disconnect the charging cable, either.

The only remaining question is how common these lamppost chargers will be... it's a bit like fast broadband, great for those who can get it, but utterly useless for anyone with only slow ADSL connection (if that)...
 

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UK energy crisis: Electric trains ditched for diesel as green power costs skyrocket 200%​

ELECTRIC trains are being ditched for diesel alternatives as the price to power them is said to have skyrocketed 200 percent in a worrying step backwards during a global energy crisis.​

Rail freight operators are now reportedly being forced to halt their electric locomotives and revert back to dieseltrains in a move set to increase carbon emissions and journey times. Logistic firms have said soaring wholesale energy prices and a boost to track access charges has made electric, low-carbon trains impossible to run at an affordable cost. The move comes as the COP26 climate summit approaches where world leaders will meet to discuss their climate goals, and it is likely to put Britain in a weaker position.
A Rail Freight Group spokesperson said: “The current significant increase in the wholesale cost of electricity for haulage means that some operators have had to take the regrettable decision to temporarily move back to diesel locomotives.

“A 200 percent increase in electricity costs for each train cannot be absorbed by the operators, or customers, and so necessary action is being taken to ensure that trains can continue to operate delivering vital goods across the country.
Hopefully short lived.
I suspect this is the same old song that was sung by those American fertiliser companies that made all our industrial CO2. RAIL FREIGHT OPERATORS are mainly foreign owned private companies

I would be highly surprised if the bulk of their freight wasn't normally transported by diesel locomotives. They don't say what percentage of electric locomotives they normally use to convey their freight???

notice the date on this -----pre price rise by some margin! my interpretation-they are all in favour of electrification as long as they don't have to pay for part of it!

 
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I suspect this is the same old song that was sung by those American fertiliser companies that made all our industrial CO2. RAIL FREIGHT OPERATORS are mainly foreign owned private companies

I would be highly surprised if the bulk of their freight wasn't normally transported by diesel locomotives. They don't say what percentage of electric locomotives they normally use to convey their freight?
I guess I‘m just dismayed by whole global energy thing at the moment.
Politicians worldwide are admirably committed to going green, when it would seem, to me anyway, unsustainable, or at least questionable to achive.
China carrying on adding to their portfolio of some 1082 coal fired power stations fed by 680 coal mines, who have been told to up their production as power outages have been happening in certain cities of late. While our dear gullible lot slap one another on the back at the impending COP26, the Chinese have a bit of a giggle telling us it’s racing and…….….. quite. 🙄
 

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I guess I‘m just dismayed by whole global energy thing at the moment.
Politicians worldwide are admirably committed to going green, when it would seem, to me anyway, unsustainable, or at least questionable to achive.
China carrying on adding to their portfolio of some 1082 coal fired power stations fed by 680 coal mines, who have been told to up their production as power outages have been happening in certain cities of late. While our dear gullible lot slap one another on the back at the impending COP26, the Chinese have a bit of a giggle telling us it’s racing and…….….. quite. 🙄
I agree totally. Ed Miliband was spouting figures yesterday (which were relevant two years ago so nothing has changed since then) and global emissions need to be more than halved by 2030 to keep temp rises to 1.5 degrees. Even 2 degrees requires a 20% reduction.

Ain’t going to happen.
 

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I guess I‘m just dismayed by whole global energy thing at the moment.
Politicians worldwide are admirably committed to going green, when it would seem, to me anyway, unsustainable, or at least questionable to achive.

I'm not unsympathetic to global warning as an issue which is real enough when presented in a rational manner. What is draining my sympathy of late is that instead of rational people like David Anttenborough who I trust, the stage is being dominated by nut cases such as insulate Britain. There is only so much worst case exaggeration and Apocalypse doom mongering I can take.

Yesterday I read a rather sad assessment of what we can do about reducing CO2. It went something like this. If I do without a car I save 2.4 tonnes of CO2 per year. If I go without a holiday flight to the US I save 1.6 tonnes, go veggie and I save 0.8 tonnes. Go without producing a child and I save 59 tonnes. You can immediately see the logical conclusion for any ardent Greenie. If we give up producing children the problem is solved, but it's also the ultimate example of tunnel vision. The fertility rate in the UK is already falling and currently around 1.6 . It needs to be 2.1 just to maintain population levels. It's only immigration that stops the population from shrinking. Should the concept of saving 59 tonnes of CO2 become widespread practice then humanity will be doomed regardless of what happens to the climate. It won't happen though, as just as the UK is only responsible for 1% of world emissions then any result of the UK citizens ceasing to bear children will have no discernible effect on the word population levels.

We really need some rational people and sanity back in the UK climate debate for me to get behind it.
 
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