New petrol and diesel car sales will be 'banned from 2030'

[markjay]

With a London adress I might suggest some advantages.

Not rural.
Far superior public transport system's'.
Warm and dry climate, by comparison.
Cleaner air than many cities as the EV revolution takes a stronger hold and exports the pollution.
Likely healthier to go by foot as the running from the knife thugs is good exercise.

The majority of the UK's population lives in urban dwellings. Let's start with that, there are a lot of unnecessary car journeys that can be avoided.

 

[Dryce]

The majority of the UK's population lives in urban dwellings. Let's start with that, there are a lot of unnecessary car journeys that can be avoided.

Our local secondary school was closed down - the land will probably end up being housing.

Meanwhile the new school was built on the periphery of the town.

There are two council sports centres - each built .... on the periphery of the town.

There is lots of new housing. A lot of it being built on the periphery of the town.

Where do we shop locally ? ..... the retail park on the periphery.

Thing about 'the periphery' is that if it was just one location then moving everything to one place wouldn't be an issue. In our case ' the periphery covers just under 270 degrees - so stuff is all spread out. People drive to shop, deliver their kids to school, and go to the sports centres.

Solution? Better suburban layout and connection. That means thinking about the real impact of where people dwell and the facilities people interact with and how they are located and joined.

Government is spending massive amounts on cutting through the landscape with HS2. I think the money might be better allocated to cutting through the suburbs and urban areas with a quality cycle network with levelled routes. That money would join up a lot of communities and services. Meanwhile planning regulations should be switched to increase density in some type of area and cut car encouraging sprawl in others.

 

[Dickster]

I agree. Death of the high street was years ago in favour of retail parks. Driving is now a necessity.

 

[Deleted member 166430]

Slight Thread Hijack:

Hack Proof! I used to do long cycling trips around Peterborough, one day in a rather "Salubrious Area" I was on a narrow cycle path with lamp posts to my right and large houses to my left, each lamp post the was a slight but annoying "Bump" in the Tarmac! Stopped to investigate and soon discovered the cause! There was a Cable buried under the Tarmac connected to every lamp post and powering up "Whatever" in every garden along the Path!

I do agree with the "Gold, Silver, Bronze and pauper offerings" and wonder when the EV App will be Published, "Dear Boss, my car wasn't charged over night, due to big brother intervention so I won't be in today"

A salubrious area in Peterborough! What have you been smoking John?

 

[Deleted member 166430]

I do that all the time. It's great. But I do appreciate that not everyone can use walking or public transport as a method of personal mobility. I am not suggesting banning driving altogether, just not encouraging it where it can be avoided.

As my wife and daughter were just heading out to walk the 2.5km to school, my daughter looked out at the heavy rain and said “Nobody else will be walking will they!”. She was clearly hinting that my wife should take the car out of the garage and drive. But she didn’t, because it wasn’t necessary. My daughter set off in the rain without any objection, because she understands. If a six year old can see the benefits of driving but understands why walking is necessary, it’s a shame that so many adults can’t.

 

[Dryce]

. My daughter set off in the rain without any objection, because she understands. If a six year old can see the benefits of driving but understands why walking is necessary, it’s a shame that so many adults can’t.

I could take a different slant on your anecdote.

So the 'understanding' 6 year old is being a bit dogmatic .... adding the kicker "Nobody else will be walking will they!"​

​

What about another pragmatic six year old happily walks most days but happily gets a lift in the rain on the odd day ... and doesn't feel the need to comment on the other 6 year old walking (happily? judgmentally?) in the rain passed en route on a rainy day?​

I can see the point you are making and I apologise because I am being artificially harsh here just to make a counter point.

 

[Dickster]

I happily walked to school when I was younger, however, I wouldn’t expect my son and daughter to do the same - “sorry guys you’ll have to walk the six miles this morning”

Ps btw that’s one of the nearest secondary schools

 

[Deleted member 166430]

I could take a different slant on your anecdote.

So the 'understanding' 6 year old is being a bit dogmatic .... adding the kicker "Nobody else will be walking will they!"​

​

What about another pragmatic six year old happily walks most days but happily gets a lift in the rain on the odd day ... and doesn't feel the need to comment on the other 6 year old walking (happily? judgmentally?) in the rain passed en route on a rainy day?​

I can see the point you are making and I apologise because I am being artificially harsh here just to make a counter point.

A very fair point.

The counter to your counter though is that you and I have created our own interpretations of my daughter’s comment. We may be way off the mark. She didn’t mention the car, it was merely my take on what she said. What she may have been attempting to convey was that she was looking forward to the 30 minute walk in the rain, something that her peers would no doubt miss out on.

So yes, it’s more than possible that my daughter doesn’t really understand the environmental and health benefits of walking to school. Perhaps it’s no more than an acceptance of what she’s always done. Her comment may not have been dogma nor appreciation, it may have been voicing disappointment that she was unlikely to meet up with school friends on the way. I don’t know. It just goes to prove that we all listen to what we want to hear and not necessarily what’s being said.

(In the event today, the rain got even heavier on the way to school. My daughter is like most children and not in the slightest bit concerned about a bit of rain - sitting around all day in wet clothes would be inconsequential to her. My wife has always been equally unperturbed by the rain, indeed often going to the extremes of dancing in tropical storms during our world-wide trips. Walking home from school the heavens opened fully so she returned doing a very good impression of a drowned rat. She wasn’t in the mood to dance! )

 

[Deleted member 166430]

I happily walked to school when I was younger, however, I wouldn’t expect my son and daughter to do the same - “sorry guys you’ll have to walk the six miles this morning”

Ps btw that’s one of the nearest secondary schools

When I passed my 11-plus and got a place at one of London’s best grammar schools, my dad bought me a brand new bike as a reward. Well, that’s what he said it was. It actually saved him having to pay out for the train and bus to get me there. I must confess that I’m not so sure I’d want my child cycling through London now.

 

[markjay]

Anecdotes are just that.... and for each anecdotes there's a counter-anecdote. Like this chap I know who for many years used to travel to work by underground - 3 stops from his home. He has recently been promoted and was given an allocated parking spot in the company car park, so he now drives to work every day.

I wasn't suggesting that all car travel is unnecessary, just that many cars journeys can be avoided. Giving examples of specific car journeys that can't be avoided doesn't disprove my claim.

No need to drag into the debate all those car journeys that would inflict hardship on people if they didn't use their cars. Instead, just ask yourself this: are you really suggesting that there aren't very many car journeys that could have been avoided? Especially for people living in urban communities.

 

[poormansporsche]

As my wife and daughter were just heading out to walk the 2.5km to school, my daughter looked out at the heavy rain and said “Nobody else will be walking will they!”. She was clearly hinting that my wife should take the car out of the garage and drive. But she didn’t, because it wasn’t necessary. My daughter set off in the rain without any objection, because she understands. If a six year old can see the benefits of driving but understands why walking is necessary, it’s a shame that so many adults can’t.

Both keepers there Lucky man.

 

[markjay]

The issue is that in some parts of post-War UK residential neighbourhoods were built to a large extent copying the American model of car-centric cities. The Americans started building satellite suburban neighbourhoods where there's no public transport (and in some case no pedestrian pavements) when the motorcar became commonplace. What we should be doing is start planning new cities and neighbourhoods from a pedestrian-centric perspective, when the priority is for people who walk, take a bus or a train, or cycle, and private motorcars come last.

Interestingly, a colleague asking for planning permission for adding residential flats to an existing building was told today by the local council that planning permission will only be granted if there is a contractual commitment that all Leases will include a clause saying the the leaseholders are not entitled to Residents Parking Permit.

 

[190]

What we should be doing is start planning new cities and neighbourhoods from a pedestrian-centric perspective, when the priority is for people who walk, take a bus or a train, or cycle, and private motorcars come last.

It will need a radical re-think to achieve that outside London. In typical small towns the high street is dying and consists of every other premises being a charity shop. The shops have moved out to retail parks on the periphery of town. The reasons are obvious, in the town centre council tax is too high (except for the charity shops) and the shops can't make a profit. On the customers side you have to pay for parking and walk some distance to actually get to the shops. The retail parks have free parking immediately in front of the shops and the shops are bigger. It's what people want.

There is going to be a voter backlash when it becomes apparent that the hidden agenda is forcing the public to give up personal transport. I walk 20 miles every week some of which is the the village shop but they are not taking my car away.

 

[Deleted member 166430]

The issue is that in some parts of post-War UK residential neighbourhoods were built to a large extent copying the American model of car-centric cities. The Americans started building satellite suburban neighbourhoods where there's no public transport (and in some case no pedestrian pavements) when the motorcar became commonplace. What we should be doing is start planning new cities and neighbourhoods from a pedestrian-centric perspective, when the priority is for people who walk, take a bus or a train, or cycle, and private motorcars come last.

I live in a development just south of Peterborough where the City planners were hell bent on doing just this. Roads were built narrow and pathways wide, parking spaces for the majority of houses were at the legal minimum. Lots of great places to walk and cycle. All done to make car ownership inconvenient. The trouble is that people are used to their cars and the freedom they provide, so what’s happened is that vast numbers are parking in the roads and complaining about the difficulties of getting around - because of all the parked cars! But people still move here without first checking on such issues. No matter what the well-meaning theories of planning it takes forever to influence people, especially those wearing blinkers!

(We like it because we have one of the few houses with a double garage and a driveway for four cars, as well as not having to travel for work. We benefit from all the positives and aren’t inconvenienced by the negatives.)

 

[markjay]

It will need a radical re-think to achieve that outside London. In typical small towns the high street is dying and consists of every other premises being a charity shop. The shops have moved out to retail parks on the periphery of town. The reasons are obvious, in the town centre council tax is too high (except for the charity shops) and the shops can't make a profit. On the customers side you have to pay for parking and walk some distance to actually get to the shops. The retail parks have free parking immediately in front of the shops and the shops are bigger. It's what people want.

There is going to be a voter backlash when it becomes apparent that the hidden agenda is forcing the public to give up personal transport. I walk 20 miles every week some of which is the the village shop but they are not taking my car away.

It's a circular argument... American-style retail parks are common in the UK precisely because everyone has a car (or two).

And this my point - that it is wrong to plan and build urban centres bases on the assumption that people will drive everywhere.

 

[markjay]

I live in a development just south of Peterborough where the City planners were hell bent on doing just this. Roads were built narrow and pathways wide, parking spaces for the majority of houses were at the legal minimum. Lots of great places to walk and cycle. All done to make car ownership inconvenient. The trouble is that people are used to their cars and the freedom they provide, so what’s happened is that vast numbers are parking in the roads and complaining about the difficulties of getting around - because of all the parked cars! But people still move here without first checking on such issues. No matter what the well-meaning theories of planning it takes forever to influence people, especially those wearing blinkers!

(We like it because we have one of the few houses with a double garage and a driveway for four cars, as well as not having to travel for work. We benefit from all the positives and aren’t inconvenienced by the negatives.)

In contrast, some years ago I stayed for a couple of weeks at a friend's house in a suburb just outside Charlotte, North Carolina, and decided to walk their dog with my daughter who was 6 at the time. It was a shocking experience - there are no sidewalks anywhere. You either hop from one house's front loan to another (where there's no fence), or walk in the road. Needles to say that we have not seen a single person walking. And obviously no bus stops or train stations.

 

[Gollom]

In contrast, some years ago I stayed for a couple of weeks at a friend's house in a suburb just outside Charlotte, North Carolina, and decided to walk their dog with my daughter who was 6 at the time. It was a shocking experience - there are no sidewalks anywhere. You either hop from one house's front loan to another (where there's no fence), or walk in the road. Needles to say that we have not seen a single person walking. And obviously no bus stops or train stations.

My wife and I actually got stopped by the police once in Florida when we tried walking to a pizza place close to the villa we were staying in. They seemed to think that anybody trying to walk was up to no good!

 

[whitenemesis]

My wife and I actually got stopped by the police once in Florida when we tried walking to a pizza place close to the villa we were staying in. They seemed to think that anybody trying to walk was up to no good!

Had exactly the same happen to me in Fremont CA
Just wanted to walk the 2 blocks to the mall from my hotel. Police stopped and asked if I was OK "Folks just don't walk"!!

 

[whitenemesis]

In contrast, some years ago I stayed for a couple of weeks at a friend's house in a suburb just outside Charlotte, North Carolina, and decided to walk their dog with my daughter who was 6 at the time. It was a shocking experience - there are no sidewalks anywhere. You either hop from one house's front loan to another (where there's no fence), or walk in the road. Needles to say that we have not seen a single person walking. And obviously no bus stops or train stations.

Total opposite when working in Madison WI I used to walk around the residential area, well maintained, wide sidewalks, beautiful tree lined avenues, kids playing on their push bikes. All very pleasant

 

[markjay]

Total opposite when working in Madison WI I used to walk around the residential area, well maintained, wide sidewalks, beautiful tree lined avenues, kids playing on their push bikes. All very pleasant

It's reassuring to know that they didn't get it wrong everywhere.

My point is that we should have more neighbourhoods built like the one you described.