NEW TAX RULES and EV SALES

[Deleted member 126969]

I agree, but rather than making us stop travelling long distances, I suspect many people will fly instead, not really a solution though is it?

I saw a news piece yesterday that made me chuckle...

"The world's wealthiest 1% account for more than twice the combined carbon emissions of the poorest 50%, according to the UN."

Climate change: Global 'elite' will need to slash high-carbon lifestyles

The world's wealthiest will need to limit emissions if the world is to avoid dangerous warming.

www.bbc.co.uk

The chuckle was ironic I suppose as I cannot really see the worlds richest changing their habits somehow. Rest assured though, us great unwashed most certainly will be expected to, and forced to as well.

Re the air travel, personally, I've always had a problem with cheap flights.

I've never understood the whole commuting thing myself. Did it briefly and really didn't care for it - complete waste of time and money IMO. I never understood the obsession a lot of folk I used to work with had for endless meetings in remote locations either. Always seemed such an inefficient use of time and resources to me. Then again, as a confirmed misanthrope, I guess I would.

 

[Benzowner]

Point taken, but I was simply trying to show how fast technology is capable of advancing.
Maybe a better comparison may have been car phones to smartphones.

The first mobile phone call was made in 1973 on a device weighing in at over 4lbs. In the 80s yuppies were loving their brick phones that were less than half as heavy and today’s smartphone weigh a fraction of that whilst offering a mind boggling array of features.

Just as NiCads were replaced by Li-ion who’s to say that car power units won’t evolve to need smaller battery packs or that batteries won’t be developed to be smaller or to produce more power?

And yet, over the years, mobile phones have got bigger, as they say go figure

 

[Deleted member 126969]

And yet, over the years, mobile phones have got bigger, as they say go figure

Much as cars have

 

[Doodle]

And yet, over the years, mobile phones have got bigger, as they say go figure

Not strictly true. We hit a peak in the early 2000s (Ericsson T28, Nokia 8210), then they started getting bigger again as people wanted cameras, hot and cold running social media etc.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Not strictly true. We hit a peak in the early 2000s (Ericsson T28, Nokia 8210), then they started getting bigger again as people wanted cameras, hot and cold running social media etc.

Agreed. As a device for making/taking calls, a mobile phone can be tiny, especially with advent of an earpiece.

I suspect that 99% of use was talking - even SMS wasn’t popular, and it was difficult on a small keypad with a small screen.

Smartphones are much, much, much more than that now. I suspect that 99% of use is NOT talking these days.

 

[Doodle]

Smartphones are much, much, much more than that now. I suspect that 99% of use is NOT talking these days.

Does that include the increasing percentage of people screaming at the speakerphone so everyone in a 4 mile radius can hear their conversation?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Does that include the increasing percentage of people screaming at the speakerphone so everyone in a 4 mile radius can hear their conversation?

Sadly even after 20 years those people still think it's cool

 

[CharlieKerr]

Having driven an EV for over a year now I feel there are a few points to be made re their 'suitability' I know they are expensive and I know there have a lower range than ICE cars, but they have so much more to offer,

Performance​

No or low fuel costs​

No visits to filling stations​

No scraping windows in the winter - programmable pre-heating​

No noise - unless you count wind and rain​

No gears - truly stepless​

No Tax - even the over £40k one​

I see so many posts decrying EV's on the cost and range issues, but it is like every new technology and our natural resistance to change that makes us think negatively, if you see beyond your biased thoughts you will see the range issue is actually not a problem. Cost remains a problem, and it is my belief that manufacturers will use the EV's as a way of elevating pricing, enjoy cheaper ICE (cheap MB'S....!) cars for they will soon fade away.

I know not everyone can charge at home, but with the average mileage in the UK now down below 8k and the average commute around 20 miles the need to charge everyday is not a reality for the vast majority! Public chargers are free (so far) and availability growing daily, charging at a normal 13A plug whilst at work or overnight recovers more than a daily usage. If you have to home charge it costs a fraction of fuel. Fast chargers are more expensive but still less than fuel, and plugging in takes seconds, no big deal.

Fact is that EV's are the next generation of cars, there is no going back, embrace them when you have the next opportunity, if you think charging is a problem, think again, you will find a way.

I get it that there are some who travel long distances every day, you will just need to wait....

I also see much about Hydrogen, this is not a replacement for hydrocarbons, you cannot put Hydrogen in an ICE (that is a bomb), the opportunity for Hydrogen is as a fuel cell which generates electricity to replace the battery in an EV, and as it stands Hydrogen will cost mile for mile over double what Petrol or Diesel does today. There may be Hydrogen engines in development, but the cost will still be there.

The ICE will remain in history, eventually joining the slide rule, steam engines, penny caramels, Watch with Mother, dial up modems and a host of other technologically replaced artifacts! I am sure you can think of some interesting ones.

For the record my car is not a company car, I did not change to go green, (don't get me started on that one) I was just fortunate enough to be able to afford it, if you can treat yourself once in a while why not. I have had some problems, but s**t does happen to all cars.

Test drive an EV and put your prejudice to the side, you will not regret it.

 

[190]

A balanced review, thanks.

Could you tell how the real world range compares with the claimed range particularly with hill climbing involved.

 

[Dryce]

Having driven an EV for over a year now I feel there are a few points to be made re their 'suitability' I know they are expensive and I know there have a lower range than ICE cars, but they have so much more to offer,

Performance​

yes.

No or low fuel costs​

If charging art home or access to free charger - but not so low if usign fast chargers away rfom home.

No visits to filling stations​

?????

Unless restricted to being within range of home the disadvantage is that you can't use a filing station.

No scraping windows in the winter - programmable pre-heating​

Assuming youi don't have a garage. Of course for those without a garage or driveway home charghing may be an issue (see above).

No noise - unless you count wind and rain​

yes if in urban environment.

But cruising on motorways or A roads is typically dominaed by tyre/road noise.

A higher performance EV will typically have similar tyres to the equivalent non-EV.

No gears - truly stepless​

Modern ZF and MB automatics are smooth already.

No Tax - even the over £40k one​

If EV's are so good they woouldn't need this incentive.

So ths is a sign of failure even though it is an 'advantage'.

I see so many posts decrying EV's on the cost and range issues,

That's because these are real.

You don't have a poxy down market EV. You have bought it by choice. That's a *luxury* you have.

Give everybody a Tesla and the majority will be happy with EVs (assuming they don't all end up queing for recharging!).

Give them basic hatchback and things are less fun.

 

[Doodle]

Public chargers are free (so far)

Is that something that's happened recently? I'm a couple of years post-EV but free CPs were exceptional round these parts, especially once Ecotricity started introducing their fees (which at the time made it cheaper to use the wife's Fiesta).

I looked at the ID3 today off the back of Harry Metcalfe's review. It's 66% more expensive than the Cupra to lease.

 

[CharlieKerr]

A balanced review, thanks.

Could you tell how the real world range compares with the claimed range particularly with hill climbing involved.

Real world range in the EQC is around 200, a bit less in the winter and more in the summer, (ambient temp is the biggest influence) and that is with 'normal' driving at around speed limits plus 10, outside 30 limits of course, and the odd insane acceleration moments!

Don't know about extreme hill climbing, my commute has a mix of both, but if you have some steep climbs it will reduce the range.

 

[CharlieKerr]

Is that something that's happened recently? I'm a couple of years post-EV but free CPs were exceptional round these parts, especially once Ecotricity started introducing their fees (which at the time made it cheaper to use the wife's Fiesta).

I looked at the ID3 today off the back of Harry Metcalfe's review. It's 66% more expensive than the Cupra to lease.

The free chargers may be a Scottish Government initiative, will probably disappear the more use they get!

See my comments re pricing, its inevitable, unfortunately.

 

[Dryce]

The free chargers may be a Scottish Government initiative, will probably disappear the more use they get!

I think there's a morality issue here.

The people least able to afford EVs don't get the benefit.

Those able to afford a nice expensive EV get a disproportionate benefit.

 

[CharlieKerr]

yes.



If charging art home or access to free charger - but not so low if usign fast chargers away rfom home.


?????

Unless restricted to being within range of home the disadvantage is that you can't use a filing station.



Assuming youi don't have a garage. Of course for those without a garage or driveway home charghing may be an issue (see above).


yes if in urban environment.

But cruising on motorways or A roads is typically dominaed by tyre/road noise.

A higher performance EV will typically have similar tyres to the equivalent non-EV.



Modern ZF and MB automatics are smooth already.


If EV's are so good they woouldn't need this incentive.

So ths is a sign of failure even though it is an 'advantage'.



That's because these are real.

You don't have a poxy down market EV. You have bought it by choice. That's a *luxury* you have.

Give everybody a Tesla and the majority will be happy with EVs (assuming they don't all end up queing for recharging!).

Give them basic hatchback and things are less fun.

Dryce, still focusing on the negatives!

Correct - fast charging away from home costs more, but still about half of fuel
Many filling stations now have fast chargers round the back - if needed for the non average mileage
Programmable heating in the EQC does not require it to be 'docked', a full pre-heat in the morning 'costs' about 6 miles range.
Road and tyre noise will be present in every car, just no engine noise in an EV.
Correct, modern gearboxes are very smooth (i had two e-classes) but not totally stepless.
Not sure how a tax advantage is a negative?

Correct I do have a luxury car, and love it! I am privileged, but as this is an MB forum most here probably are to a degree!

 

[Petrol Pete]

I think there's a morality issue here.

The people least able to afford EVs don't get the benefit.

Those able to afford a nice expensive EV get a disproportionate benefit.

Was that not the same with the solar panel 'gold rush' recently. The small ones on the roof of an average house pay infinitely less than those covering the 'fields' of wealthy land owners. So far the only people I know who have EV's are fairly well off or company car drivers...or both.

 

[CharlieKerr]

I think there's a morality issue here.

The people least able to afford EVs don't get the benefit.

Those able to afford a nice expensive EV get a disproportionate benefit.

Just a perk of the extra tax we pay

 

[Dryce]

Not sure how a tax advantage is a negative?

The ongoing need for a tax advantage and subsidies is a demonstration that the technology cannot succeed no its own merit.

It is therefore - at the moment - a failure.

The need for a mandatory ban on competing technoolgy reinforces that conclusion.

This simple logc tends to get conveniebntly overlooked by those who say that EVs are already a solution. The requirement to make the changes mandatory in 2030 means that the government doesn't expect EVs to be a general choice on theior own merie.

So clearly even by 2030 the technology is still expected to be a failure in the mass market relatve to ICEs. Otherwise the ban would be unnecessary.

(That failure has no bearing on whether a Tesla - or similar - is an attractive proposition as a discretionary purchase if you can afford it.)

 

[glojo]

Charlie Kerr The ICE will remain in history, eventually joining the slide rule, steam engines, penny caramels, Watch with Mother, dial up modems and a host of other technologically replaced artifacts! I am sure you can think of some interesting ones.

Hi Charlie
You appear to have left off the EV from that list??

 

[Dryce]

The ICE will remain in history, eventually joining the slide rule, steam engines, penny caramels, Watch with Mother, dial up modems and a host of other technologically replaced artifacts! I am sure you can think of some interesting ones.

Poignantly ... steam still rules when it comes to nuclear power stations.

These are still important to the near to medium term future of EVs.

The 2030 market manipulating ban doesn't exclude all ICE vehicles - battery electric power has not demonstrated even a manipulated prospect of near to medium term economic viability at present for larger passenger and goods vehicles apart from some edge cases.