New Year Honours

[BTB 500]

Indeed it's inconceivable that surviving US aircrew from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki missions would be awarded major public honours today, despite their actions effectively ending the war. Of course their flights were milk runs anyway compared to what 617 sqn did.

 

[grober]

While applauding the sentiment I think people are in danger of confusing honours and decorations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom

Johnny Johnson was the worthy recipent of the DFM [ distinguished flying medal] decoration for his part in the raid , a raid from which many brave men failed to return. [ note also as "other ranks" he received the DFM and not the DFC [distinguished flying cross]reserved for officers only back then ---the class system remained even in war time!
Personally as the recipient of one of the highest military awards he marches with true heroes and should be regarded as such. As the recipent of a knighthood the company he would then keep is not nearly so illustrious a group!

 

[Dryce]

for minimal gain other than propaganda/morale boosting.

Apparently most of what Britain and in particular the RAF got up to was actually pretty useless and simply for effect - or so the revisionists keep telling me.

I think the effort and impetus with which the Germans rebuilt the dams puts it in a rather more realistic light.

The storytellers of today want something of a knockout blow or a turning point or an abject failure. Reality just isn't like that. It sits in between.

Attrition isn't quite such an easy thing to measure or explain.

 

[TheFoX]

Personally as the recipient of one of the highest military awards he marches with true heroes and should be regarded as such. As the recipent of a knighthood the company he would then keep is not nearly so illustrious a group!

And this only highlights the flaws and the bias in the current system of knighthoods, where they are traded for commercial success rather than individual achievement.

As an example, Elton John has a CBE, which he gained for services to the music industry. Would he have still earned a CBE if we, as the paying public, had not bought his songs. In other words, it is not his music that earned him the CBE, but the revenue from his music, and this is the distinction that I make in that it is not the art that holds value, but what can be earnt from the art.

Two identical paintings could be auctioned off, yet the one painted by David Hockney would attract a better price than the one painted by Betty Smith because the David Hockney branding holds more weight.

True heroes are overshadowed by pseudo-heroes. I also find it insulting how we are constantly told how hard Celebrities actually work, while the rest of humanity are considered lazy.

(Ariana Grande is the hardest working 23-year-old in the world. Those young 23-year-old soldiers coming under fire on a daily basis should consider how lucky they are not to have Ariana's workload).

I think that modern society has been over contaminated by the entertainment industry. Our reliance on media has diluted our perception of what is real and what is artificial.

 

[Dryce]

While applauding the sentiment I think people are in danger of confusing honours and decorations.

The setup is a bit confusing - some people are highly paid, acknowledged with top awards in their career ..... and get a titled honour on top.

I think the honours system should be about recognition of those who would otherwise go unnoticed. Titles should be ditched.

 

[BTB 500]

Apparently most of what Britain and in particular the RAF got up to was actually pretty useless and simply for effect - or so the revisionists keep telling me.

It's interesting that 617's later missions using Barnes Wallace's Tallboy and Grand Slam bombs (against U boat pens, bridges, tunnels, V3 emplacements, Tirpitz, etc.) were far more effective and also huge achievements from a technical POV, yet they're virtually unknown.

 

[Dryce]

It's interesting that 617's later missions using Barnes Wallace's Tallboy and Grand Slam bombs (against U boat pens, bridges, tunnels, V3 emplacements, Tirpitz, etc.) were far more effective and also huge achievements from a technical POV, yet they're virtually unknown.

To be fair the Tirpitz raids are known - though I think it's maybe forgortten as to how much effort was expended.

The other Tallboy and Grand Slam deploying missions are certainly a lot less widely known.

That said - my recollection is that Paul Brickhill's book did extend to cover these. But then the film focused only on the dams raid - and as more information was released about the raid and the technicalities later books had more material to add - further eclipsing the later missions.

 

[Scott_F]

Well Johnny was awarded the MBE but after years of decline his iconic former base is set to finally close:

Red Arrows air base to be sold off

 

[Chrishazle]

Didn't 617 also become the Pathfinder squadron accurately dropping markers for following bombers/bomb aimers to aim for, in time (once they had a P51 Mustang with adequate range, or maybe even a Mosquito) having a controller near/over the site to bring the Pathfinders back in if the markers became obliterated?

There was one bombing raid using Grand Slam against a long high road bridge near the Italian border, others had tried many times but missed, 617 put a Grand Slam close to it, the hole it made when it exploded was so big the bridge fell into it! Hell of a flight in Lancs that had been stripped out to be able to carry the 10 ton bomb plus just enough fuel.

 

[Scott_F]

The squadron dropped the Grand Slam on the Bielefeld Viaduct in north Germany but I'm not sure about a bridge near the Italian border.

 

[Chrishazle]

Scott, that may be the one I'm thinking of, as my memory of reading about it dates from well back into the last century!!

 

[Dryce]

Didn't 617 also become the Pathfinder squadron accurately dropping markers for following bombers/bomb aimers to aim for, in time (once they had a P51 Mustang with adequate range, or maybe even a Mosquito) having a controller near/over the site to bring the Pathfinders back in if the markers became obliterated?

I think there is some confusion. 617 was not a pathfinder force as such. But it used low level marking on its own raids.