Not MB But you guys are the best!!

[Martyn_n]

Ok, apologies in advance but this is not a Mercedes issue. It's because the Citroen forum is useless that I turn to yo for advice!

A couple of years ago I had some (Ultimately unnecessary) work carried out on the gearbox of my citroen Picasso (Clutch, flywheel, actuator pack and drive shaft). The car has only completed about 12k miles since and has progressively lost synchro on 5th and 6th gears. I thought this was simply bad luck at 82k miles but accept that PSA may not be the best at producing gearboxes. As it's an electronically controlled manual box (EGS) it's virtually impossible to drive as you cannot ease the gears in.
I thought it may help if I changed the oil to something ever so slightly thicker in order to get a few more miles out of it, nothing ventured and all that!
Well today I set about changing the oil, this is where it got interesting. Whilst I wasn't surprised at the shiney brass hue to the oil from the synchro or the debris on the magnetic plug from the crunched gears I was shocked to find 3 litres of oil in the bowl, the capacity of the gearbox is 2.1l (2 for a change) and the guidelines are very strict about not over filling.
Clearly when the dealer did the work all that time ago they had put back 50% too much oil.

So two questions. Firstly could this over filling be the cause of what I think is premature synchro failure and secondly if it clearly is would I have any claim against the dealer after such a length of time?

Thanks in advance for you time.
Martyn

 

[tron]

I had one of these for a weekend. It belonged to the company as a pool car. It was nearly undriveable anywhere, completely dangerous in a city and eventually switched its own lights off on a dark motorway. I shudder to be reminded of it. Yours failed because it is fundamentally bad. After six different and enjoyable models of Citroen, I am sad to say so but it is simply not worth bothering with. The EGS box is notorious for good reason.

 

[Martyn_n]

I had one of these for a weekend. It belonged to the company as a pool car. It was nearly undriveable anywhere, completely dangerous in a city and eventually switched its own lights off on a dark motorway. I shudder to be reminded of it. Yours failed because it is fundamentally bad. After six different and enjoyable models of Citroen, I am sad to say so but it is simply not worth bothering with. The EGS box is notorious for good reason.

Thanks for that. I have to say that our 11yrs of ownership haven’t scarred me in quite the same way your weekend did so the argument that the gearbox has failed simply because the car is fundamentally bad hasn’t been particularly insightful. I do agree that the box was never the best but I’ve driven a Ferrari of the same vintage with an equally irksome shift.
Thanks for the input though.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I'm a Citroen sceptic, for historical reasons, but I do know three Picasso owners who are more than happy (ecstatic?) with their long-term (5+years apiece) of their Picassoes. They're not at all mechanical of mind, they just want to start it and go. And their cars seem to do that for them - and for about 10 million Citroen owners in France.

 

[skippyjasper]

Ok, apologies in advance but this is not a Mercedes issue. It's because the Citroen forum is useless that I turn to yo for advice!

A couple of years ago I had some (Ultimately unnecessary) work carried out on the gearbox of my citroen Picasso (Clutch, flywheel, actuator pack and drive shaft). The car has only completed about 12k miles since and has progressively lost synchro on 5th and 6th gears. I thought this was simply bad luck at 82k miles but accept that PSA may not be the best at producing gearboxes. As it's an electronically controlled manual box (EGS) it's virtually impossible to drive as you cannot ease the gears in.
I thought it may help if I changed the oil to something ever so slightly thicker in order to get a few more miles out of it, nothing ventured and all that!
Well today I set about changing the oil, this is where it got interesting. Whilst I wasn't surprised at the shiney brass hue to the oil from the synchro or the debris on the magnetic plug from the crunched gears I was shocked to find 3 litres of oil in the bowl, the capacity of the gearbox is 2.1l (2 for a change) and the guidelines are very strict about not over filling.
Clearly when the dealer did the work all that time ago they had put back 50% too much oil.

So two questions. Firstly could this over filling be the cause of what I think is premature synchro failure and secondly if it clearly is would I have any claim against the dealer after such a length of time?

Thanks in advance for you time.
Martyn

Sadly, the length of time will be on the dealer’s side as their defense.

Looking at your current reality it sounds like a rebuild is in order. Are there competent non-dealer shops that can rebuild the transmission?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Bellow]

So two questions. Firstly could this over filling be the cause of what I think is premature synchro failure and secondly if it clearly is would I have any claim against the dealer after such a length of time?
Martyn

Hard to say - overfilling usually causes leaks. It can though, increase temperature due to all the churning.
What will eat synchro rings (or anything made from 'yellow' metals is an oil specified as EP (extreme pressure) as the anti-wear additive chemically attacks yellow metals. The higher the temperature the worse this will be.
Researching this recently for a truck application, GL5 is recommended for its diff, GL4 for its (also AMG) gearbox.

Maybe worth checking what went in 12k miles ago and comparing with what is specified by Citroen.

 

[grober]

These EGR gearboxs appear to have two fluids- the conventional manual gearbox oil for the gears and the electric hydraulic actuator pack hydraulic fluid. I take it you drained the conventional gearbox oil? Have you checked the hydraulic fluid reservoir level ? the system eventually leaks from the plastic return pipe which was replaced with a more obust design?
Forums / C4 Picasso Problems and issues / Leak of EGS Actuator Fluid - C4 - DS4 Owners
https://frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58887

 

[Martyn_n]

Thanks everybody for their input.
I think you are correct that the length of time since the dealer worked on the car means any claim against them will fall on deaf ears. I have no idea how I can check what spec of oil they used, I just assumed as they are a main dealer it would be correct. The fault that Graeme mentioned was my first port of call as the symptoms did point to the clutch not releasing but the hydraulic fluid was still full with no sign of leakage (The actuator pack and associated hydraulics were some of the items the dealer replaced previously). As the new oil has made no difference it does now look as though a refurb of the gearbox is needed but in this throw away society I am not sure there are many specialists out there who does this sort of thing any more, and the value of the car puts any spend on it is hard to justify. It really is a shame as, incompetent dealers aside it has been a fantastic family car.

 

[ioweddie]

Sounds like you need a box of matches LOL

 

[zipdip]

Well either pick up a s/h box on ebay or a refurb,either way you will not have much change out of a grand,I suppose a refurb is the best option,we run a DS5 Citroen but it has the auto box not the EGS,cannot fault it,made by a Jap company and fitted in lots of different makers cars of course sealed for life but I will get the oil and filter changed in about 10,000 miles.

 

[Martyn_n]

Well either pick up a s/h box on ebay or a refurb,either way you will not have much change out of a grand,I suppose a refurb is the best option,we run a DS5 Citroen but it has the auto box not the EGS,cannot fault it,made by a Jap company and fitted in lots of different makers cars of course sealed for life but I will get the oil and filter changed in about 10,000 miles.

Our neighbour has exactly the same car but with the auto instead of the EGS, how I wish we had gone down that line as he has had one of the issues we have had and the promise of better fuel efficiency of the EGS has been outweighed by the grief!

 

[Martyn_n]

Just waiting for the service manager to call back. I have no doubt that it will just turn into me ranting about the poor service and him telling me there is nothing he can do about it. For other peoples sake I hope he briefs his staff about gearbox oil capacity going forward!

 

[Bellow]

I have no idea how I can check what spec of oil they used, I just assumed as they are a main dealer it would be correct. .

All you can reasonably do is ask them what they used and if they tell you, check the tech data for it online. Needs to be the full title as suffixes will give more info on spec than product name given to it for marketing purposes.

 

[grober]

Appart from overfilling the box, high oil levels would be unusual- fluid loss thro leaks being the norm for failure. Are there hydraulic actuators with access inside the main body of the box? Could the original failure have been due-to /resulted-in leakage of hydraulic fluid into the main gearbox oil resulting in a mix of hydraulic fluid and oil which was never changed? Can't find a decent diagram of the box internal actuation system.

 

[Bellow]

Unless the box was filled prior to installation (possible) then hard to overfill as fill orifice and level orifice are usually one and the same.

 

[Martyn_n]

The gearbox in question should be filled for life. There is no traditional fill orifice (That also limits over-filling), you have to fill it with the required quantity through a breather hole on top. I'm guessing they have topped it up following the driveshaft or actuator renewal without first draining it completely.
There is no way that I can see that the hydraulic fluid could find it's way into the main case, the only HP hydraulic lines that are external to the actuator module goe to the concentric slave cylinder / release bearing in the bell housing. Also there has been no perceptible loss of hydraulic fluid, and definitely not a litre of it.

 

[Bellow]

The gearbox in question should be filled for life. There is no traditional fill orifice (That also limits over-filling), you have to fill it with the required quantity through a breather hole on top. I'm guessing they have topped it up following the driveshaft or actuator renewal without first draining it completely .

Having lost some when the driveshafts were removed...

 

[Martyn_n]

I suppose I should have given more background on the original reason for the dealer interventions.
There was a lot of driveline shunt when drive was taken up, the dealer diagnosed DMF problems and I stumped up for an expensive DMF / clutch replacement, no improvement. The dealer, at their own expense, went on to replace a driveshaft, lower engine mount and finally the actuator pack before finally declaring it a trait of this gearbox and giving up. Shortly after this I rectified the original problem by changing the upper offside engine mount for £110 (They charged me full price for the part!). A few years later and about 12k miles down the road we are now lumbered with a useless car. Now looking at a 'box on ebay just down the road from me at £250.

 

[Martyn_n]

Having lost some when the driveshafts were removed...

Indeed, and they decided to add some+1ltr for good measure!

 

[Bellow]

Now looking at a 'box on ebay just down the road from me at £250.

Can/will you manage to draw a small sample of that box's oil to check for 'yellow'? Or is that possibly over-kill when it seems your synchro failure is uncommon?

Out of curiosity, does the automation extend to gearchanging or just clutch actuation?