Number Plate - using a screw + cap to slightly alter?

[flango]

My plate was a no brainer £250 and it reads V** IAN F

Bought for my 40th Birthday by SWMBO would look better on a S600 though

 

[neilrr]

My plate was a no brainer £250 and it reads V** IAN F

Surely it reads V**1 ANF?

 

[MOCAŠ]

Surely it reads V**1 ANF?

Evidently not, when seen on Flanaia1's car...

 

[kwakdonut]

It's the plonkers with the black & silver plates on new-ish cars that are the worst. The ill spaced/slightly off font ones don't bother me as someone has already said that actually they are generally easier to remember!

As for plod, few of them have the time/can be bothered to pull someone for a slightly iffy plate and lets face it, wouldn't we rather they catch burglars/rapists/murderers?

 

[MOCAŠ]

It's the plonkers with the black & silver plates on new-ish cars that are the worst. The ill spaced/slightly off font ones don't bother me as someone has already said that actually they are generally easier to remember!

Act ual lyIthin kits qui teimp or tantto us etheco rrectspa cingot her wise itca nmak ethin gsalitt letric kytor ead.

What else is there apart from the spacing to differentiate 100 A, 1 OOA and 10 OA? Also, a correctly spaced plate can actually be easier to remember, because people expect them to conform to a familiar pattern; just like it's easier to get a phone number when it follows one the recognised (5-6, 4-3-4 or 3-4-4) formats.

Moreover, if the spacing's been altered, it raises doubt about the validity of the characters as well. If I saw a plate that looked like DAVID, I'd be wondering what the owner had done to achieve it. Just a missing space, or is that final 'D' really a zero? Is the first 'D' really a letter O? Perhaps it was actually D4 VJD or D4 ULD with various adjustments. The only way to avoid such doubt is to stick to the correct font and spacing.

As for plod, few of them have the time/can be bothered to pull someone for a slightly iffy plate and lets face it, wouldn't we rather they catch burglars/rapists/murderers?

I couldn't agree more - the police have far better things to be doing, so why bother committing petty offences that just waste their time?

 

[Benzowner]

What else is there apart from the spacing to differentiate 100 A, 1 OOA and 10 OA? Also, a correctly spaced plate can actually be easier to remember, because people expect them to conform to a familiar pattern; just like it's easier to get a phone number when it follows one the recognised (5-6, 4-3-4 or 3-4-4) formats.

But the formats do not conform as you say, you can have one two or thee numbers, single letter at the beginning or end, and so on and so on. I personally think it is easier to remember a name or word than a series of letters and numbers. I do agree though, that the fonts should be standard.

 

[Baldylocks]

Internet experts

There's always "a fella on the internet that said......" which is never a good source of legal advice or basis for a defence.

The policy of my local force is that VRMs that are mis-represented or in some other way do not conform with the relevant legislation, is that they should be dealt with by means of a £60 non endorseable fixed penalty notice. In addition to this the offence should be reported to the DVLA who on the 3rd offence can revoke the plate (with no refund) and re-issue the original VRM. This change in legislation came in last June IIRC. Whilst I wouldn't dispute a claim that an officer may have said unoffically that it's not a problem if it can be read by ANPR, I know there are plenty of other officers that rigorously enforce the legislation, so pot luck really who comes across you.

As for catching burglars/rapists/murderers, you would be amazed at how many criminals are caught because of minor motoring offences - the Yorkshire Ripper perhaps being the most famous.

 

[Mr E]

I agree but its the risk you take, but to set the record straight

You can't have a marker on the car on PNC for a mis spaced number plate

It is recorded with the DVLA and they send you a snotty letter

You will never get the plate taken off you, there has never been a single instance of this happening or anyone even going to court for it. The reason the double standards the DVLA operate CPS would drop it straight away ( ask SWMBO)

You would never make the mental leap to what SWMBO plate says unless you knew her nickname

Everyone to their own but this works for us

I was intrigued as I thought I knew of at least one case where a plate was withdrawn...

I couldn't find what I was looking for, but a search through DVLA FOIA requests reveals that as of 11 August 2008:

* 15,784 warnings issued by DVLA regarding mis-representation of number plates.

* 693 cases where a subsequent warning has been issued.

* 22 registration marks withdrawn - 18 from police notifications, 1 from a DVLA enforement officer and 3 on the grounds of their potential to cause offense (1 a fairly well known plate H8 GAY which was reported by an MP, and 2 others reported by members of the public).

So by their own admission, not a huge number but at least 22 plates withdrawn and the assumption would be that 19 would be common or garden mucking about with the spacing / letters / fonts offences.

 

[flango]

I was intrigued as I thought I knew of at least one case where a plate was withdrawn...

I couldn't find what I was looking for, but a search through DVLA FOIA requests reveals that as of 11 August 2008:

* 15,784 warnings issued by DVLA regarding mis-representation of number plates.

* 693 cases where a subsequent warning has been issued.

* 22 registration marks withdrawn - 18 from police notifications, 1 from a DVLA enforement officer and 3 on the grounds of their potential to cause offense (1 a fairly well known plate H8 GAY which was reported by an MP, and 2 others reported by members of the public).

So by their own admission, not a huge number but at least 22 plates withdrawn and the assumption would be that 19 would be common or garden mucking about with the spacing / letters / fonts offences.

Maybe I should have clarified my original statement

There has never been a case where a plate has been withdrawn for miss spacing of the letters if the plate complies with the standard font and size as required in the UK, there have been plates withdrawn for the incorrect unreadable fonts and for placing bolts to change the appearance of numbers say a 0 to an 8 to fool anpr cameras which are probably the majority of the 18 police notifications. (Common trick of drug dealers)

If you challenge the withdrawl of your plate (on miss spacing grounds) you then have to be formally prosecuted for the offence which would necessitate a court appearance, as this cannot be heard in a magistrates court the CPS would kick it out on 2 counts 1) Cost 2) hardly the crime of the century taking up a judges time with minor offences. So result is you get another nasty warning and then have to be a good boy.

I totally agree with baldylocks you make your decision and takes your chance. But look at the odds of getting caught 32 million cars in the UK and 350 billion miles driven every year, each police force has 30 - 40 traffic cops max, you can't be booked for the offence by a uniformed cop, and you can't be summoned because you were caught on camera (that defeats there argument of your number plate can't be read by camera.)

Once in 7 years for both me and SWMBO so at a cost so far of £4.29 per year we'll keep on taking the chance

 

[Gridlock]

and you can't be summoned because you were caught on camera (that defeats there argument of your number plate can't be read by camera.)

I was pulled for my pressed-metal plates on the Golf after I drove through an ANPR van trap, it was one of those horrible discussions where the IQ < 80 policeman was trying to simultaneously tell me that it was illegal because it couldn't be read by an ANPR system whilst also telling me that their ANPR system had read it fine.

In the end something more interesting came through and they left me, but was annoying. The plates are 100% legal for reflectivity, spacing, font etc etc (even have the GB Euro side flash on the back).

Policemen don't like it when you clearly know the law they're trying to f*** you over with.

 

[flango]

Policemen don't like it when you clearly know the law they're trying to f*** you over with.

Thats my point know the law and use it to your advantage, having a lawyer as one partner and a barrister as a business partner does have its advantages sometimes

 

[Baldylocks]

Maybe I should have clarified my original statement

There has never been a case where a plate has been withdrawn for miss spacing of the letters if the plate complies with the standard font and size as required in the UK, there have been plates withdrawn for the incorrect unreadable fonts and for placing bolts to change the appearance of numbers say a 0 to an 8 to fool anpr cameras which are probably the majority of the 18 police notifications. (Common trick of drug dealers)

I don't know what the statistics are but I would suggest that if only 22 have been withdrawn it's only a matter of time before one is withdrawn for mis-spacing.

If you challenge the withdrawl of your plate (on miss spacing grounds) you then have to be formally prosecuted for the offence which would necessitate a court appearance, as this cannot be heard in a magistrates court the CPS would kick it out on 2 counts 1) Cost 2) hardly the crime of the century taking up a judges time with minor offences. So result is you get another nasty warning and then have to be a good boy.)

The offence is that the VRM does not comply, there are no seperate offences for mis-spacing and another for illegal fonts. A Fixed Penalty Notice is in essence a prosecution, it just avoids the court process. If you choose to fill in part 3 on the back of the ticket or fail to substantiate the ticket, it will be heard at a Magistrates Court

I totally agree with baldylocks you make your decision and takes your chance. But look at the odds of getting caught 32 million cars in the UK and 350 billion miles driven every year, each police force has 30 - 40 traffic cops max, you can't be booked for the offence by a uniformed cop, and you can't be summoned because you were caught on camera (that defeats there argument of your number plate can't be read by camera.)
)

I'm not sure which force only has 40 traffic cops, it would have to be a fairly small one as we have more than that in our Division! In addition, the offence can be dealt with by ANY uniformed Police Officer, it isn't an offence that requires specialist trainig to deal with (such as a tachograph offence)

Once in 7 years for both me and SWMBO so at a cost so far of £4.29 per year we'll keep on taking the chance

It's only in the last 12 months or so that the DVLA have started to crack down on this, with the resultant increase in enforcement. So it may well be that your average takes a bit of a dive in the future, as well as the risk of the loss of your plate.....

 

[Gridlock]

having a lawyer as one partner

I assume you meant "one's partner"

Or do you have pampus grass outside?

 

[flango]

I assume you meant "one's partner"

Or do you have pampus grass outside?

good point I did indeed mean one's

 

[flango]

I don't know what the statistics are but I would suggest that if only 22 have been withdrawn it's only a matter of time before one is withdrawn for mis-spacing.

If the owner accepts the withdrawl I agree if he challenges it in court there is not much chance of it been withdrawn,


The offence is that the VRM does not comply, there are no seperate offences for mis-spacing and another for illegal fonts. A Fixed Penalty Notice is in essence a prosecution, it just avoids the court process. If you choose to fill in part 3 on the back of the ticket or fail to substantiate the ticket, it will be heard at a Magistrates Court

I totally agree a £60 Fixed Penalty which if you don't pay it will go to court, but that is the risk if you get caught you pay as I and SWMBO did and avoid court its the most economic option. What I meant was if that you challenge the plate being withdrawn and opt for the court appearance it cannot be heard in a magistrates court as it involves the secretary of state for transport, hence the reason the cps don't progress most non descript cases

I'm not sure which force only has 40 traffic cops, it would have to be a fairly small one as we have more than that in our Division! In addition, the offence can be dealt with by ANY uniformed Police Officer, it isn't an offence that requires specialist trainig to deal with (such as a tachograph offence)

Thats about the normal number around here dedicated to traffic, I'm not talking ARV or RRV or RCU numbers in that though to be fair but even if a force had over 100 dedicated to traffic the chance of getting caught is still extremely low. A prosecution by a normal beat / panda car cop for a motoring offence is very difficult to make stick in court and is usually avoided like the plague, if it's a motoring offence they will nearly always call for a traffic officer to assist and coroborate if available. CPS do not like motoring prosecutions from non road traffic officers


It's only in the last 12 months or so that the DVLA have started to crack down on this, with the resultant increase in enforcement. So it may well be that your average takes a bit of a dive in the future, as well as the risk of the loss of your plate.....

As regards your last point I'd bet my house, cars and salary that mine and SWMBO plates will still be on our cars when we are too old to drive them. There is no way in a million years the CPS would ever go to crown or high court with such a trivial offence. The cost of it would be simply outside of their scope and guidelines and it would get immediately slung out. Again thats a risk you take but with a lawyer and barrister giving the advice I feel relatively comfortable

Please don't think I am being funny and I am not having a go at you or traffic police I have the greatest respect for what you do having worked with a lot of traffic cops on advanced driving and 2 of my pals being traffic cops I'm not sure I could handle what you guys do everyday.

I just think the system operates on double standards with the DVLA pricing plates high becasue they think they can be read as something else and then trying to enforce when they are made to do so. I have no problem with the US system choose what name you want but no alterations allowed, that would be fine with me

 

[Baldylocks]

Phew - quote of a quote of a quote!
Originally Posted by Baldylocks
I don't know what the statistics are but I would suggest that if only 22 have been withdrawn it's only a matter of time before one is withdrawn for mis-spacing.

If the owner accepts the withdrawl I agree if he challenges it in court there is not much chance of it been withdrawn,

See Below



The offence is that the VRM does not comply, there are no seperate offences for mis-spacing and another for illegal fonts. A Fixed Penalty Notice is in essence a prosecution, it just avoids the court process. If you choose to fill in part 3 on the back of the ticket or fail to substantiate the ticket, it will be heard at a Magistrates Court

I totally agree a £60 Fixed Penalty which if you don't pay it will go to court, but that is the risk if you get caught you pay as I and SWMBO did and avoid court its the most economic option. What I meant was if that you challenge the plate being withdrawn and opt for the court appearance it cannot be heard in a magistrates court as it involves the secretary of state for transport, hence the reason the cps don't progress most non descript cases

Right, I think the confusion here is who by and when the plate is withdrawn. Should you accept the ticket the penalty is £60, should you be prosecuted at the Magistrates court then the fine is within their guidelines. The successful prosecution is then reported to the DVLA. On the 3rd occurence of a successful prosecution the DVLA then have the option to revoke the VRM. This is done apart from the penalty you receive as a result of the prosecution. Whilst it will be the Secretary of State that revokes it, it will no doubt be done under some sort of devolved power to a suitably qualified civil servant within the DVLA. They will then revoke the VRM in the same way that they revoke driving licenses and doesn't need to be done at court as a part of the punishment - it is allowed for in the relevant legislation. IE they just do it and write to you to tell you.

In the same way someone who has their licence revoked can challenge it, there MAY be some means of challenging the revokation of a VRM. This would be something that you would have to initiate and it would be at your cost. It is not a decision for the CPS as the Crown is not prosecuting. In the mean time, if you continued to display the VRM you could expect to be stopped everytime you pinged an ANPR and possibly have the vehicle seized depending on circumstances.


I'm not sure which force only has 40 traffic cops, it would have to be a fairly small one as we have more than that in our Division! In addition, the offence can be dealt with by ANY uniformed Police Officer, it isn't an offence that requires specialist trainig to deal with (such as a tachograph offence)

Thats about the normal number around here dedicated to traffic, I'm not talking ARV or RRV or RCU numbers in that though to be fair but even if a force had over 100 dedicated to traffic the chance of getting caught is still extremely low. A prosecution by a normal beat / panda car cop for a motoring offence is very difficult to make stick in court and is usually avoided like the plague, if it's a motoring offence they will nearly always call for a traffic officer to assist and coroborate if available. CPS do not like motoring prosecutions from non road traffic officers

Just to clarify, a force would be West Yorkshire Police, North Yorkshire Police, Greater Manchester Police etc etc. A division (in West Yorkshire for example) would be Kirklees or Calderdale or Keighley and Bradford North. A division may have 30-40 Traffic Officers depending upon it's size, but a force will have considerably more than that.

I'm not sure of your source of information re prosecutions, I'm not a traffic Officer but I certainly don't have a problem prosecuting for traffic offences and regularly do so. Neither I nor my colleagues need the assistance or coroboration of a traffic Officer for the vast majority of traffic offences. I don't have any problems making it stick if it goes to court and have a very good success rate.

It's only in the last 12 months or so that the DVLA have started to crack down on this, with the resultant increase in enforcement. So it may well be that your average takes a bit of a dive in the future, as well as the risk of the loss of your plate.....

As regards your last point I'd bet my house, cars and salary that mine and SWMBO plates will still be on our cars when we are too old to drive them. There is no way in a million years the CPS would ever go to crown or high court with such a trivial offence. The cost of it would be simply outside of their scope and guidelines and it would get immediately slung out. Again thats a risk you take but with a lawyer and barrister giving the advice I feel relatively comfortable

See above, there is always room for more case law, but the DVLA would just revoke it, they wouldn't need to take it to court.

Please don't think I am being funny and I am not having a go at you or traffic police I have the greatest respect for what you do having worked with a lot of traffic cops on advanced driving and 2 of my pals being traffic cops I'm not sure I could handle what you guys do everyday.

No, I don't think you are being funny at all but maybe slightly misinformed on a couple of points. At the end of the day a Police Officer will deal with an offence as they see fit, if that means prosecution at court then it is their job to gather all the evidence and present it to the court. The semantics of interpretation of that law are for people other than a PC and the local magistrates hence the high regard the British legal system is held in around the world.

I just think the system operates on double standards with the DVLA pricing plates high becasue they think they can be read as something else and then trying to enforce when they are made to do so. I have no problem with the US system choose what name you want but no alterations allowed, that would be fine with me

I couldn't possibly comment! All I can do is uphold the law as it's presented to me....

 

[MOCAŠ]

Thats my point know the law and use it to your advantage

But surely what you're actually advocating is knowing the loopholes and technicalities that might help you evade the law?

Don't have a problem with knowing the law and standing your ground. Years ago, I met up with an old school friend of mine who had become a policeman. I was driving one of my classics at the time, which being pre-1965 doesn't require (and has never had) seat belts or external mirrors. While admiring the car, he advised me to get at least a driver's side door mirror fitted if I didn't want to risk getting pulled by the traffic police. So I explained that the law was quite clear in that it didn't need them, and that it wouldn't be passing its MoTs otherwise. I have to say I was quite surprised by his response, which was something like: "Regardless of what the law says, if an officer thinks something doesn't look right there's a chance they'll pull you over anyway to check it out. Getting an extra mirror fitted might save you the hassle." His point was that they can't tell just by looking whether the car's registration date falls one side or the other of a particular piece of legislation. I can see where he was coming from, but l've never bothered getting a external mirror fitted and - touch wood - have never had any trouble from the police about it.

 

[flango]

I couldn't possibly comment! All I can do is uphold the law as it's presented to me....

No problem at all and its everybody to their own area of expertise, I rely on my lawyer wife and barrister pal for legal advice and my 2 traffic cop pals for what and what not to do and what unofficially they turn a blind eye to and what is force policy.

There is always the right to appeal to anything in English Law and I would go to court for revokation of a plate even if I had to instigate it against the DVLA or secretary of state representative, once you engage the services of a barrister the game changes completely, how many successful prosecutions have there been in Crown or High Court for traffic offences with non road traffic officers involved?

The trick is knowing the law and the system, the worst thing you could ever do is go to a magistrates court and have a case heard by someone who usually (but not in all cases) does not have a clue get it out of there and you have a chance

If you look at one of my other threads you will see how SWMBO and my Barrister friend took a motoring offence committed and admitted by her all the way to overturn the stupidity of some jobsworth in a certain force and won hands down, thats why I am so confident regarding the number plate issue.

I don't really disagree with any of your points and again not being funny if a non road traffic officer reported me for a traffic offence I would take it straight to court, unless it was a non endorsable fixed penalty such as my number plate and I knew I was in the wrong then I'd just pay the £60

I know you have a job to do and I don't have a problem with that, we are just expressing our views from what is basically the prosecution and defence point of view two totally different sides of the argument and a healthy exchange is always good in my opinion but I appreciate in your position it is not easy to go into detail but thank you for your openess and frankness in what you have posted

 

[flango]

But surely what you're actually advocating is knowing the loopholes and technicalities that might help you evade the law

Maybe it is, but is that not how Nick Freeman (Mr Fixit) makes a very good living out of defending his motoring clients?

 

[oldcro]

To solve any problems regarding the fitment of VRM plates, the following should be applied.

Has the VRM been altered in any way from that intended by the DVLA?

If No then end of story.

If Yes then end of car via the crusher.

There, no need for courts or legal involvement at all.