Oil Temps - E63

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FateSynchro

Active Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2017
Messages
213
Location
Teesside / Cumbria
Car
E63 AMG S / Ford Ranger Hawk 2018 / MG ZT / MG ZR Turbo
Could someone shed some light on oil temps for me? what is safe and what isnt? the car runs usually around 100-110 if im driving round town or giving it a bit round the back roads.
Mostly with street/sprited driving it never ever goes over 115.
(Car is a 5.5 BiTurbo running around 730bhp)
However, at Croft on saturday doing a track day, i peaked around 132 which i feel is very high.

I know a good Synthetic oil can take 125 with bursts to 150 but i still feel anything over 110 to be considered too hot.
Water temp never budges from 94 degrees, the most i have ever seen this is 96.
When on a long motorway haul at 80ish the temps sit at a lovely 88/90 (oil) and 90ish on the water.

So please can someone explain to me why it is so poorly cooled? my C6 RS6 never budged over 108 even after 10 solid laps at Croft, both running similar power 700+ and both big twin turbo engines, the only thing i can think of that aided cooling in the RS was a better oil delivery system, it was a dry sump setup with a large oil rad up front for cooling.
My dad in his E63 (6.2) he peaked at 129 on his oil as well.... we only managed 3 or 4 laps tops before brake fade and excessive oil temps brought us in.

Now i know these cars are not designed for this but even everyday driving i feel the oil setup is poor, it takes a decade to warm up to 80 degrees and just doesnt cool well enough.

What temps do you guys see day to day? mapped or standard, im curious to get a comparison going.
 
it's a good question. I think that the oil radiators are a bit on the small side, but also the M157 oil pump varies oil pressure based on engine demand to improve consumption (!!) so I think the oil flow might be lower than in some other engines.

I don't think that the temperatures you are seeing are a problem for a good synthetic oil - see the table below. It suggests that temperature limits for even mineral oils are around 149deg c. The ECU will also pull boost if the engine oil temperature is too high - not sure when this protection kicks in though?. On my (standard) car, I see 101-105 degrees tooling around town, and around 90 on the motorway. The ECU will display a message on the MFD if the coolant or oil temperature goes out of limits, and it will intervene to reduce boost targets until temperature reduces sufficiently. I do wonder how these limits are affected by the mapping process? I'd hope that these safeguards aren't touched at all.

Track use would fall into the severe use definition - I think you like to do very regular oil changes anyway, but it might be worth halving the oil change interval. You could also do the community a favour by getting your oil analysed - it would be good to see if the viscosity has changed over time, or whether there are any engine wear indicators. If the oil analysis is good then the temperatures your seeing should be ok too!.

Cheers,
Alex

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/oil-temperature-limits-lubrication-d_1492.html
 
I believe you were given a few pointers on this before. Have you tried/followed them?

My personal view on this is your car is 1] remapped 2] used on a track and 3] relies on standard cooling.

Last one is what I'd address, starting with larger intercoolers. Contrary to what's been advised, they won't increase your power but will return the engine to the normal operating temp mode.

It's pointless to compare it against another brand as technology is completely different from engine to engine let alone from mfr to mfr.
 
I believe you were given a few pointers on this before. Have you tried/followed them?

My personal view on this is your car is 1] remapped 2] used on a track and 3] relies on standard cooling.

Last one is what I'd address, starting with larger intercoolers. Contrary to what's been advised, they won't increase your power but will return the engine to the normal operating temp mode.

It's pointless to compare it against another brand as technology is completely different from engine to engine let alone from mfr to mfr.

Yes i was given an idea beforehand but i was curious to compare other peoples cars, i have had the software updated, the brakes are now bigger and i have some new rubber, so its all in a days work haha! but yes the next issues are going to be cooling.
I want to start by getting the oil temperature down, i do not belive that the intercooler is actually suffering at this power level, i belive from what Alex said above me, and what i've spoke to mercedes about that the power drop is due to overall engine temperature.
My Iat's dont actually get hot enough (unless overall engine temp gets too high) to really concern me at the point in time.
My aim is going to be in reducing engine oil stress, as even if the oil is capable of taking the temperature i wouldnt really want to cause any premature wear or damage.
I intend on changing the oil next weekend as i've ordered some from opie oils but they have been out of stock so only posted it today and i wont get it till Monday now.

it's a good question. I think that the oil radiators are a bit on the small side, but also the M157 oil pump varies oil pressure based on engine demand to improve consumption (!!) so I think the oil flow might be lower than in some other engines.

I don't think that the temperatures you are seeing are a problem for a good synthetic oil - see the table below. It suggests that temperature limits for even mineral oils are around 149deg c. The ECU will also pull boost if the engine oil temperature is too high - not sure when this protection kicks in though?. On my (standard) car, I see 101-105 degrees tooling around town, and around 90 on the motorway. The ECU will display a message on the MFD if the coolant or oil temperature goes out of limits, and it will intervene to reduce boost targets until temperature reduces sufficiently. I do wonder how these limits are affected by the mapping process? I'd hope that these safeguards aren't touched at all.

Track use would fall into the severe use definition - I think you like to do very regular oil changes anyway, but it might be worth halving the oil change interval. You could also do the community a favour by getting your oil analysed - it would be good to see if the viscosity has changed over time, or whether there are any engine wear indicators. If the oil analysis is good then the temperatures your seeing should be ok too!.

Cheers,
Alex

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/oil-temperature-limits-lubrication-d_1492.html

Very interesting read! i would also be interested in what the map alters if it has any holds on these paramenters, i change my oil quite often as you know yes.
I usually do it after any track day or around 4000 miles ish depending on driving behaviour.. all my work done i make a personaly invoice and stick it in the history folder so it shows its been extremely well looked after.
 
Do you guys know which category does standard oil fall into?

Not sure if this is helpful, but max I saw was 110 after spirited drive in my remapped car.
 
Very interesting read! i would also be interested in what the map alters if it has any holds on these paramenters, i change my oil quite often as you know yes.
I usually do it after any track day or around 4000 miles ish depending on driving behaviour.. all my work done i make a personaly invoice and stick it in the history folder so it shows its been extremely well looked after.

Ok, so you will be fine w.r.t. oil degradation due to temperature during a track day. I highly doubt that your map would directly affect temperature control limits.. I can PM the temperature control function logic description from WIS if you want. Unfortuately it doesn't appear to reference the critical thresholds for coolant and oil temperature. I would guess that the boost control logic is also taking into account IAT, pulling boost if it exceeds a critical value. I'll have a look to see if there is a function description in WIS. If so, you will feel a reduction in performance if you're heatsoaking the IC. THat seems more likey to cause a performance reduction than high oil temperature, especially if you're not seeing a high oil or high water temperature warning in the MFD, but it may not be binary, i.e. boost could be pulled progressively if the oil or water temps continue to rise
 
Ok, so you will be fine w.r.t. oil degradation due to temperature during a track day. I highly doubt that your map would directly affect temperature control limits.. I can PM the temperature control function logic description from WIS if you want. Unfortuately it doesn't appear to reference the critical thresholds for coolant and oil temperature. I would guess that the boost control logic is also taking into account IAT, pulling boost if it exceeds a critical value. I'll have a look to see if there is a function description in WIS. If so, you will feel a reduction in performance if you're heatsoaking the IC. THat seems more likey to cause a performance reduction than high oil temperature, especially if you're not seeing a high oil or high water temperature warning in the MFD, but it may not be binary, i.e. boost could be pulled progressively if the oil or water temps continue to rise

Rather than guess, i've check WIS/ASRA, which has the following to say:

Function sequence for overheating protection In a case of thermal overload the overheating protection protects the converters against engine damage and overheating damage. If the coolant or charge air temperature is too high, the ME-SFI [ME] control unit no longer fully closes the boost pressure control flap. Furthermore, the throttle valve The ME-SFI [ME] control unit actuates the internal combustion engine of the throttle valve actuator (M16/6) can no longer be opened fully. The ME-SFI [ME] control unit shortens the injection period of the fuel injectors (Y76) according to the lower air mass.

Furthermore the heating element in the coolant thermostat is actuated by the ME-SFI [ME] control unit so that the two-disk thermostat is fully opened and the whole coolant is cooled over the engine radiator. If engine oil or coolant temperature is too high, a warning message is shown in the multifunction display (A1p13) on the instrument cluster. To do this the ME-SFI [ME] control unit transmits an appropriate signal via the chassis CAN 1, front SAM control unit with fuse and relay module and the chassis CAN 2 to the IC.

So, no explicit mention of oil temperatre causing boost / throttle limiting - just charge air temperature and coolant temperature. It does also say that the thermostat is opened at WOT to allow the coolant temp to fall towards 80% to help resist knock.
 
Rather than guess, i've check WIS/ASRA, which has the following to say:

Function sequence for overheating protection In a case of thermal overload the overheating protection protects the converters against engine damage and overheating damage. If the coolant or charge air temperature is too high, the ME-SFI [ME] control unit no longer fully closes the boost pressure control flap. Furthermore, the throttle valve The ME-SFI [ME] control unit actuates the internal combustion engine of the throttle valve actuator (M16/6) can no longer be opened fully. The ME-SFI [ME] control unit shortens the injection period of the fuel injectors (Y76) according to the lower air mass.

Furthermore the heating element in the coolant thermostat is actuated by the ME-SFI [ME] control unit so that the two-disk thermostat is fully opened and the whole coolant is cooled over the engine radiator. If engine oil or coolant temperature is too high, a warning message is shown in the multifunction display (A1p13) on the instrument cluster. To do this the ME-SFI [ME] control unit transmits an appropriate signal via the chassis CAN 1, front SAM control unit with fuse and relay module and the chassis CAN 2 to the IC.

So, no explicit mention of oil temperatre causing boost / throttle limiting - just charge air temperature and coolant temperature. It does also say that the thermostat is opened at WOT to allow the coolant temp to fall towards 80% to help resist knock.

It just gets more and more interesting, as we know Coolant temperature is not an issue, it easily keeps itself cool on that front.
I'm going to mount an inline sensor in the water to air radiator or in the bottom of the expansion bottle just for my own curiosity.
Unless it monitors this itself, but i doubt that as IAT's would be enough info for the ECU, i'm going to log the IAT's and compare against coolant temperature (intercooler) and then also look into why oil temp rapidly surpasses water temp.
I just dont see how the water cooling can be so affective yet the oil blisters upto 130 degrees no issue, i just cant see standard MB oil being upto the task in prolonged enviroments.
I will also send a sample of this oil for analysis if someone can link me a good place to send it?

I think my first port of call over winter is to uprate the oil cooler and find out about how the oil cooling circuit works..
Alex, how do i get WIS/ASRA? i would love a copy of that just to do research on more than anything.
 
I think my first port of call over winter is to uprate the oil cooler and find out about how the oil cooling circuit works..

Are you going to change the oil pump to match the new cooling circuit too?

I'm yet to see a performance upgrade that involves "a remap and uprated oil cooler" rather than an intercooler.

But I'm just a guy on the internet so take it for what it's worth.
 
You're tracking a big heavy saloon car, its not really designed for it and I think you'll always have issues doing it regardless of mods. I had a friend who attempted to track his C6 RS6 and it proved very unreliable also.

For reference oil temps in my CLK63 Blackseries don't exceed 120c, my GTR runs at about 110c even with extended track use and hard driving.
 

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