Older Series II type Daimler / Jaguar as a proposition?

[John]

I've always quite fancied and older Series I, II or III Jaguar or Daimler as I think they are stunning. One of the finest and most instantly recognisable shapes (for those of a certain age or older of course).

I have a nosey now and again and occasionally something I find absolutely stunning will be for sale for not huge money - like this:

1973 Daimler Double Six V12 | eBay

What are these like as a proposition (reliability, looking after etc. and of course costs besides the obvious servicing, insurance, car tax and MOT)?

Is the V12 a shocker and are there better engines / ages to go for?

I have no experience of them and in fact any cars older than 1985 so looking for any wisdom really.

 

[thebiglad]

IMO That is a magnificent car !!! When it first came out one of the UK motoring magazines summarised their review by saying "the only difference between cruising at 100 and 120 mph is a slight increase in hum, from the engine compartment". How understated is that ????

Absolutely beautiful example of one of the prettiest Jaguars - only slight downside as far as I'm concerned is the fuel consumption - 10-12 mpg !!!

 

[st13phil]

What are these like as a proposition

Remember that these cars - beautiful as the styling is - were built very much down to a price, and build quality was very variable (often very bad). As such they are likely to be a serious money-pit unless someone else has already sunk lots of time, effort and money into a car and then baled out in desperation. Having said that, a nice one is sublime to drive, albeit more cramped for interior space than the external dimensions would suggest.

 

[Scott_F]

The one in your link looked OK until I got to the interior photos. Oh dear.

I've had a Series I, II and III when they were cheap and they are lovely cars to drive with fantastic interior ambience.

I doubt that you will need the performance of a V12 car as they are elderly luxo barges that don't need to be rushed and a V12 will probably cost more to buy and will certainly be more expensive to run and maintain.

All of them are prone to rust - especially the earlier cars. The top of the front wings around the headlamps attracts dirt and the lower rear edges of the wings rot too. The bonnet hinges and front cross member are also vulnerable. The sills and footwells are probably the worst areas - the floors can completely disappear. The sills have end caps that rust through and the outer sills (easily seen) and inner sills (hidden) then suffer catastrophic rot. The rear wheel arches rust very visibly as do the rear quarters under the fuel tanks and the valance through which the tail pipes protrude. Fuel tanks rot out too. Series III cars have bonded screens rather than rubber seals and bubbling around them is common and more difficult to address. Like all models of the 60s, 70s and 80s, it was rust that put paid to the majority of them.

The six-cylinder cars are mechanically strong but again they are of their time and will not typically do the mileage that a modern engine will easily do. Most are pretty knackered by 100k miles with heavy oil consumption, low oil pressure, leaks and top-end rattle all commonplace. The diffs leak oil onto the inboard brake discs and rectification will involve dropping out the whole IRS unit which will also be necessary get proper access to the separate handbrake calipers.

They are old cars and the engines are heavy which leads to the characteristic "Jag Sag" as the front springs start to weaken over time and the nose sinks. Front and rear rubber suspension mounting bushes must be in good condition or else the ride, one of the outstanding features of these cars, will suffer.

Electrics are simple by modern standards (my Series I had manual windows) but they were known for having a lot of glitches even when new. There is much less wood to worry about than on earlier Jaguar saloons and although the leather is hard-wearing the headrests can deflate like a balloon as the filling degrades over the decades. Sagging headlinings are also typical.

These cars will need more on-going expenditure and maintenance than a W116 or W126 of a similar age but they are much better to drive and the interior of a well-cared for example is a far nicer place to be than any Mercedes of the period.

 

[John]

Thanks all.

This idea may well be confined to my dreams but I wanted to at least look into it before it wasn't an option for whatever reason.

IMO That is a magnificent car !!! When it first came out one of the UK motoring magazines summarised their review by saying "the only difference between cruising at 100 and 120 mph is a slight increase in hum, from the engine compartment". How understated is that ????

Absolutely beautiful example of one of the prettiest Jaguars - only slight downside as far as I'm concerned is the fuel consumption - 10-12 mpg !!!

I'm not too worried about it as it would not be a serious daily driver as otherwise I doubt it will stay in that condition!

Besides which, that's only about 5mpg > 7mpg less than my previous E55.

Remember that these cars - beautiful as the styling is - were built very much down to a price, and build quality was very variable (often very bad). As such they are likely to be a serious money-pit unless someone else has already sunk lots of time, effort and money into a car and then baled out in desperation. Having said that, a nice one is sublime to drive, albeit more cramped for interior space than the external dimensions would suggest.

That's what was lurking in the back of my mind in terms of a money-pit. I suppose if I bought one for less than £5k, I could sell it for spares or even cut my losses and throw it away at that price. Anything over £10k starts to become a little harder to swallow.

The one in your link looked OK until I got to the interior photos. Oh dear.

I've had a Series I, II and III when they were cheap and they are lovely cars to drive with fantastic interior ambience.

I doubt that you will need the performance of a V12 car as they are elderly luxo barges that don't need to be rushed and a V12 will probably cost more to buy and will certainly be more expensive to run and maintain.

All of them are prone to rust - especially the earlier cars. The top of the front wings around the headlamps attracts dirt and the lower rear edges of the wings rot too. The bonnet hinges and front cross member are also vulnerable. The sills and footwells are probably the worst areas - the floors can completely disappear. The sills have end caps that rust through and the outer sills (easily seen) and inner sills (hidden) then suffer catastrophic rot. The rear wheel arches rust very visibly as do the rear quarters under the fuel tanks and the valance through which the tail pipes protrude. Fuel tanks rot out too. Series III cars have bonded screens rather than rubber seals and bubbling around them is common and more difficult to address. Like all models of the 60s, 70s and 80s, it was rust that put paid to the majority of them.

The six-cylinder cars are mechanically strong but again they are of their time and will not typically do the mileage that a modern engine will easily do. Most are pretty knackered by 100k miles with heavy oil consumption, low oil pressure, leaks and top-end rattle all commonplace. The diffs leak oil onto the inboard brake discs and rectification will involve dropping out the whole IRS unit which will also be necessary get proper access to the separate handbrake calipers.

They are old cars and the engines are heavy which leads to the characteristic "Jag Sag" as the front springs start to weaken over time and the nose sinks. Front and rear rubber suspension mounting bushes must be in good condition or else the ride, one of the outstanding features of these cars, will suffer.

Electrics are simple by modern standards (my Series I had manual windows) but they were known for having a lot of glitches even when new. There is much less wood to worry about than on earlier Jaguar saloons and although the leather is hard-wearing the headrests can deflate like a balloon as the filling degrades over the decades. Sagging headlinings are also typical.

These cars will need more on-going expenditure and maintenance than a W116 or W126 of a similar age but they are much better to drive and the interior of a well-cared for example is a far nicer place to be than any Mercedes of the period.

Yes, the interior is a little bit RuPaul for my liking. Perhaps black carpets would have been better. I've always liked black XJs with Oatmeal leather so the seat colour is OK and I could live with the piping as it is there although I wouldn't choose it.

 

[Flyinspanner]

They are lovely, I owned a 1976 Series 2 XJ6 4.2 back in the early 80s.

That era suffered as Jag was suffering being part of BL, and the quality wasn’t always the best.
Ride and comfort was wonderful.
Parts surprisingly cheap.
Some horrid colours available... ‘Greensand’ like the inside of a babies nappy

The two door version is beautiful butsuffered from noisy glass seal as it was frameless door to rear 3/4 window.

Loved mine..... even if it was Greensand

 

[Scott_F]

I like these cars a lot and regularly browse Ebay just to see what's out there. I see many expensive ones and very, very few good ones.

This is just one example of what to avoid and there are plenty of far worse offerings:

Classic Jaguar XJ6 Series 2 1976 3.4 Fully Restored and in great condition | eBay

Although it's had a shiny new paint job, various issues are immediately obvious - the stupid wheels, the chrome arches (instant alarm bells) and the low-spec cloth seats. There are no photos of the nearside but the panel fit of the offside doors and wings is dreadful - look at the uneven vertical gap between the wing and the door and the huge horizontal gap between the rear edge of the front wing and the sill !

But when you look closely it gets a lot worse. The offside sill under the driver's door is dented out of shape, there is overspray on the front windscreen rubbers (the sure sign of a cheap job) and what looks like a rust blister on the nearside roof pillar that has been painted over too. But the worst part is in the photo showing the rear of the car. Apart from incorrect straight tailpipes, the panel below the boot lid is full of clumsily applied filler in both corners that has again just been blown over.

It has (allegedly) been bid up to £6k so far but it's a pos that will be re-listed again for sure.

 

[Flyinspanner]

Oh dear..... deffo one to avoid (though the interior looks to be in good condition) think there is a lot of rust lurking....

 

[John]

They are lovely, I owned a 1976 Series 2 XJ6 4.2 back in the early 80s.

That era suffered as Jag was suffering being part of BL, and the quality wasn’t always the best.
Ride and comfort was wonderful.
Parts surprisingly cheap.
Some horrid colours available... ‘Greensand’ like the inside of a babies nappy

The two door version is beautiful butsuffered from noisy glass seal as it was frameless door to rear 3/4 window.

Loved mine..... even if it was Greensand

I think most British car colours of the 1970s and 1980s were based on shades of sh17 and diarrhoea weren't they?

I like these cars a lot and regularly browse Ebay just to see what's out there. I see many expensive ones and very, very few good ones.

This is just one example of what to avoid and there are plenty of far worse offerings:

Classic Jaguar XJ6 Series 2 1976 3.4 Fully Restored and in great condition | eBay

Although it's had a shiny new paint job, various issues are immediately obvious - the stupid wheels, the chrome arches (instant alarm bells) and the low-spec cloth seats. There are no photos of the nearside but the panel fit of the offside doors and wings is dreadful - look at the uneven vertical gap between the wing and the door and the huge horizontal gap between the rear edge of the front wing and the sill !

But when you look closely it gets a lot worse. The offside sill under the driver's door is dented out of shape, there is overspray on the front windscreen rubbers (the sure sign of a cheap job) and what looks like a rust blister on the nearside roof pillar that has been painted over too. But the worst part is in the photo showing the rear of the car. Apart from incorrect straight tailpipes, the panel below the boot lid is full of clumsily applied filler in both corners that has again just been blown over.

It has (allegedly) been bid up to £6k so far but it's a pos that will be re-listed again for sure.

I think it is a case of what is right with it...

As soon as I spotted the wheels, I would have clicked on. Why would anyone fit the wheels from a 308 is beyond me as they look awful.

Chrome wheel arches look awful to me anyway, even with no rust underneath!

The seats are far too Liberace too.

Oh dear..... deffo one to avoid (though the interior looks to be in good condition) think there is a lot of rust lurking....

I couldn't cope with the rusty surfaces of the cold galvanised rear arches on my E55. I imagine a car of this vintage will do me in I think.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

John, just buy one and learn afterwards, makes for a more entertaining ownership - worse case scenario it’ll be a fantastic ornament!

 

[tonysmb]

I saw that one advertised. They're lovely cars, but there are huge caveats. Unfortunately, the mid-70s weren't BL's finest days and the Series 2 Jaguars were probably the most unreliable and poorly built of all the Jags. Having said that, as they're 40+ years old, they may well have had all the bugs ironed out by now, or been completely rebuilt. However, as others have said, they weren't built to MB quality and definitely down to a price, but they felt much more 'special' than the MBs. Series 2 could suffer from weak electrics and corrosion. Suspension is fairly complex, so can be correspondingly more expensive if worn. Rear brakes (inboard) are often neglected due to inaccessability.

The V12 is a superb engine, but susceptible to overheating if not properly serviced and if it does, it's not unknown for it to be scrap as it virtually welds the heads to the block. Some say the 4 carbs are v.difficult to balance, others say it's easy, although the engines actually look quite simple now compared to some modern ones, and certainly not as complex as they looked when new. 12mpg on a carb model might be a little optimistic (maybe on a gentle run), 8 mpg around town probably more realistic. All depends how driven. They're one of the few cars I've driven where I actually saw the needle on the fuel gauge move as I drove along.

That one's interior wouldn't be my first choice but it might look better in the flesh. Lovely cars to drive, very wafty but surprisingly quick for a 40-year old car but it's the general smoothness that stands out. A good one is a mighty fine car. A poor one is the opposite.

There are quite a few Series 3 V12s coming on to the market from Japan, although I haven't looked at any Series 3s were generally much better built than the earlier XJs but are sen as too modern for some. Some think the Series 2 sits in the middle ground, ie not as iconic as the Series 1 (original grille size and dash etc), nor as well built / specced as the later Series 3, which were vastly improved from c1983 onwards.

 

[SW18]

I too peruse the classifieds and dream of these, e.g.:

Series 1 jaguar xj12 For Sale (1973) on Car And Classic UK [C905535]

I especially like the look of the rare coupe version.

But as others have said, surely these cars are likely to be serious trouble to keep running, especially the V12. It may not be as complex as a modern V12, but it doesn’t look simple:



I recall that in the mid-90s a friend’s father purchased a 1970 XJ12 in a fetching lilac colour (very much of the era!) but that it was quickly deemed unrepairable due to rust holes you could almost fit a football through and extensive engine problems that no-one was interested to help repair. And that was a car only 25 years old, anything similar would be almost 50 now. It was a shame, the car looked fantastic!

 

[daveenty]

I've had many of these cars over the years, both Jaguar and Daimler derivatives, and still like them. A lot.

However, read Scott's post #4 again which, at least to me, is a very accurate summing up of these cars.

The Series 1 was a bit old fashioned looking to me, with the sidelights over the bumper but it was a reasonably sound car at the time. The Series 2 was a vast improvement aesthetically but the build quality seemed to suffer, with poorly fitting components and strange electrical issues. Lucas = Prince of Darkness anyone?

My personal favourite was the Series 3, especially with the 4.2 engine. An absolute peach of a car to drive, with a lovely "waftability" to go with it. They're never going to be a sports car, or have the performance to keep up with one but, in their day, they were a deceptively quick barge.

As Scott mentioned above, rust has killed most of them off now and it wasn't limited to the areas he mentioned either. I had to replace a rear skirt on one of mine, which ended up taking a lot longer than anticipated as it took half the boot floor and rear inner wings out with it. The engines, whilst being good for the time, didn't really last and low oil pressure will suggest a rebuild is needed.

I've purposely not mentioned the V12 here as I've never owned one. the only experience I've had with them was that a friend's father had one and said friend took it out and managed 5.3mpg with it. That was many years ago but a figure that will always stay with me.

The white shed linked to above is an absolute dog and will require many hundreds of hours spending on it. Not only that, it's the less desirable 3.4 engine which was atrocious on fuel as it was still a carburettor fed engine.

 

[st13phil]

A short story about the quality issues on the early Series III cars and their elimination.

Some years ago I worked with a guy, Andy, who had worked in a senior procurement position for Jaguar in the era when John Egan arrived. During his first few months at the plant, every night Egan would arrive at the line around 20 minutes before he went home, pick an almost finished car at random and say "I'm taking that one" which would give them just enough time to fuel it and put plates on it but nothing else.

The following morning all the senior staff would be summonsed to a meeting at which Egan would proceed to read out a list of all the quality and build issues he had personally found on the car when he took it home. In Andy's words, they were some of the most uncomfortable professional meetings he aver attended, but gradually the culture of the plant changed and the daily lists of faults read out by Egan became shorter. Within 3 years they were 5th in the JD Power list behind only Mercedes(!) and the Japanese manufacturers instead of languishing at the bottom.

As always, quality starts from the top with the culture of the leader and the organisation.

 

[Yugguy]

If you have the cash to fix, or it has been restored, and it is not your only car then why not. I think they are absolutely beautiful. The current XJ looks so bland compared to these previous incarnations.

 

[Scott_F]

If you don't need four seats, an XJ-S will offer a similar driving and ownership experience (it is based on the same floorpan and shares the same independent front and rear suspension set-ups) and if you opt for a six cylinder car rather than a V12 it will come with the later and much-improved AJ6 engine.

Personally, I would go for a late pre-facelift one as the facelift of 1991 wasn't an improvement and the later ones with colour-coded plastic bumpers look cr@p.

Bidding on both of the cars below is currently a lot lower than that horrible white piece of junk in the earlier link and both sellers appear to be more honest than the bullsh!tter with the saloon. The second car is obviously better than the first as reflected in the bids:

1989 Jaguar XJS 3.6 Auto | eBay

JAGUAR XJS 4.0 STUNNING CONDITION 70600 GENUINE MILES SERVICE HISTORY | eBay

 

[Doodle]

This lot are just down the road from me, a lot of very nice old Jags to dribble over, but at a price.

XJS and XJ from KWE

 

[Scott_F]

This lot are just down the road from me, a lot of very nice old Jags to dribble over, but at a price.

XJS and XJ from KWE

That "very rare" Guy Salmon thing is a monstrosity and for what they are asking you could buy three excellent Coupe models instead of something that looks as though it belongs in Texas.

Jaguar XJS for sale including Eventers – KWE Cars

 

[Doodle]

I did say they weren't cheap! You can't blame them for the Guy Salmon one though, it was acceptable in the 80's

 

[Scott_F]

I did say they weren't cheap! You can't blame them for the Guy Salmon one though, it was acceptable in the 80's

The very best, low-mileage convertibles don't make £29k and that thing is just a standard 100k mile V12 Coupe with some dreadful gaudy bits tacked on.