OM642: Garrett GTB2365vk

[No2fast]

Hi guys,

Steven here, from Berlin. It is my first post here on this forum and i would like to say "hello" to all of you mercedes enthusiasts!

I am a CLK320 CDI owner and i am looking for a turbocharger upgrade.

I found a UK company, building hybrid turbochargers for the OM642. I am looking for an Garrett GTB2365vk, listed here Garrett GTB2365VK 777318 781743 764809 Hybrid turbocharger turbo STAGE 2+ | eBay

It would be nice, if you can share your exprerience about the company and for the specific turbo upgrade.

Thanks

Steven

 

[No2fast]

Okay.

I would like to give you some further informations.

Currently i am running a tuned file for my CLK320 CDI with the stock GT2056 turbocharger from a german tuner (speer chiptuning) and an intercooler upgrade. Easy safe power. The company listet 280 hp / 620 Nm but i am thinking it could be less power but more than stock of course.

I have tested many tuned files but as long as i can drive on the german autobahn i thought it would not be the best idea to use the most aggressive file when accelerating up to about 260 km/h. I don´t want to melt the engine or engine parts. So far so good.

Now things are changeing here in germany due to the energy crisis. It looks like we will have a speed limit during the next months. For sure.

Anyway...That means: no highspeeding anymore :-(

Not nice, but on the otherhand. That offers room for more power.

I like the idea of having a "torque monster" with lots of boost and enough power for some heavy sprints up to a certain speed but no higher speeding anymore with excessive egt´s and iat´s.

I am looking for a turbocharger upgrade. The GTB2365 is a much bigger turbocharger than the stock 2056. The customer service of falcon turbo developments told me that I do´nt have to be worry about a delay in spooling the turbo, because the GTB23 turbine shaft is much lighter than stock and of course the billet compresor wheel as well. the whole axis weighs about 40gr less. The bigger turbocharger should be spooling even faster. What do you think guys?

Of course it would be better to pick up the stock ball bearing turbo GT2260 with the bigger compressor housing from the newer OM642 LS engine (265 hp) and make it a hybrid turbo (2265). But i am not going that way due to the costs and modifications needed (watercooling lines, turbo mount, oil restrictor etc). I know the these ballbearing turbochargers spool faster but i do not know if its worth the hassle.

 

[suty455]

I have a OM642 with a remap and a uprated intercooler and no cats etc, it produces 312 bhp and 704 nm torque, I looked into fitting a better Turbo as well however the limitation is the driveline, the gearbox simply cannot handle more and be reliable so that is where I have stopped, I assume you have the straight six engine with the older 5 speed box, if you do then more is possible.
I would be wary of just fitting a hybrid turbo without the other corresponding mods to ensure safety EGTs can shoot up in just a few seconds of hard throttle use, give these guys a call

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[Willo54]

Hello No2fast, I'm William from France. First, happy to see that you want to upgrade the turbocharger after the intercooler upgrade. I read your post about it and it was interesting.

I own a W211 E280 CDI V6 with manual gearbox and can't find any clutch to run with only 600nm of torque of the stage 1. The sachs performance clutch mounted isn't strong enouth. And not certain about my 716.6 gearbox capabilities. At the moment, I am searching solution to a good clutch for om642 with 716.6 gearbox but it is really difficult. When I will find it, I want to upgrade the turbocharger too.


I saw this turbo on ebay and wondering how many relative boost pressure it produce. Do you have some information about it?

About the spool, I think the company tell the truth, I remember a video on a modification turbo company and they said that they used lighter turbine axis and wheel that original and it spool faster even though it's bigger.



Is it really so difficult and costly to do the modifications for a ball bearing turbocharger? A member in mbworld did it in 2014 on a jeep CRD with om642.
Link: OM 642 + GTB 2260 VKLR and w211 e320 turbo upgrade - MBWorld.org Forums

A ballbearing turbocharger lowers the exhaust back pressure that lower fuel consumption.


Maybe the member SaundersW203 could give you some information about a GT2365, he wrote many post about the Om642 on his W203.
Link: OM642 gt2056v hybrid gt2365v | Performance Lounge



About the gearbox, Mercedes gives 700nm of torque for the 7 speed 722.9. On the 320cdi V6 the gearbox is 722.902 W7 C700. (700 because 700nm of torque). But on the 420cdi V8, the gearbox is 722.903 W7 C700 (700nm too). I don’t know what is the difference between, but bkorven on youtube put 1000nm of torque at 2300 rpm on his 722.9 and after more than 200,000 km it seems to still work properly.
Link:

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Suty455, can you give us more information about the 722.9 gearbox max torque?


One other thing, the first generation of om642 don't like too much pressure and the piston head can crack. The limit I read on few forums seems to be 750nm but no information about the pressure. The pistons heads of the OM642LS are different and they have a lower compression ratio (to decrease the Nox pollution). The compression ratio of the first generation of OM642 is 17.7:1 and the one of OM642LS is 15.5:1. New pistons can manage more boost pressure.

Another interesting post of om642 preparation: E320 V6 cdi Tuning (T-Rex) - MBWorld.org Forums



Informations on Om642 big modifications are rare. If you do some turbo upgrade on your CLK, please write it because it’s important information for Om642 community.



About DPUK, they mainly work on Om606 and they don't wanted to look at an adaptation of their monomass flywheel for Om606 to replace my Om642 bimass flywheel. Maybe you will be luckier than me, but I have the impression that they don't really want to work on Om642.

 

[No2fast]

Hi guys,
thanks for the infos.
@ suty455: its alltready the V6 OM642 with the 7G automatik transmission 312/704 are huge numbers for the stock turbo btw.
@ wilo54: There are some Om642 upgrade turbo cars outhere. OM642 Mercedes Benz 3.0 V6 CDI [English] | Facebook
You would need a better pressure plate or just a copperhead clutch disc. Like this:. Copperhead 200mm Clutch Disc - Aircooled.Net VW Parts
You can ask them, if the build a copperhead disc from the Mercedes stock disc.
i bought the turbo and will post pics in comparison to the stock unit soon. I am pretty sure you can run as much boost as you like with this turbo. But I am looking not for maximum boost but for better flow numbers than stock turbo on a moderate level (like 1.9-2 bar). I don´t want to max out everything.
Main problem is the remapping process. I am datalogging with torque pro / real time charts for torque pro. I am working along with a tuner who will do some kind of remote tuning for me. Next step: downpipe and exhaust.
Cheers
Steven

 

[suty455]

Hi guys,
thanks for the infos.
@ suty455: its alltready the V6 OM642 with the 7G automatik transmission 312/704 are huge numbers for the stock turbo btw.
@ wilo54: There are some Om642 upgrade turbo cars outhere. OM642 Mercedes Benz 3.0 V6 CDI [English] | Facebook
You would need a better pressure plate or just a copperhead clutch disc. Like this:. Copperhead 200mm Clutch Disc - Aircooled.Net VW Parts
You can ask them, if the build a copperhead disc from the Mercedes stock disc.
i bought the turbo and will post pics in comparison to the stock unit soon. I am pretty sure you can run as much boost as you like with this turbo. But I am looking not for maximum boost but for better flow numbers than stock turbo on a moderate level (like 1.9-2 bar). I don´t want to max out everything.
Main problem is the remapping process. I am datalogging with torque pro / real time charts for torque pro. I am working along with a tuner who will do some kind of remote tuning for me. Next step: downpipe and exhaust.
Cheers
Steven

The info re torque is what MB quotes so I stuck with that, the car has a custom intercooler, downpipes and full 3" Exhaust with Duplex exit and 2 small rear silencers no centre silencer, no emissions controls at all but it has a DPF cannister in place with a straight through pipe and it was custom remapped on a rolling road which in itself was a challenge with the ECU as you generally need to do it on a bench, it now actually produces less waste after the manifold than a standard car but of course it has no Cat etc, and will it still get 45mpg on a gentle motorway run around 70mph, use the power though and its possible to drop into the mid 20s average in mixed use is 36-38.
Mine was the 268 bhp version so the jump is not really that massive in power the NM however is very healthy and more is readily available but the box simply would not cope.
One thing we faced a challenge with was the Throttle response so it was mapped with the anti skid off throttle response but with the option of having the anti skid working this removes the "buffer" MB built in to the throttle map to prevent sudden take offs if I turn off traction control wheelspin at 35 mph is possible with kickdown as the torque comes in.

 

[No2fast]

Suty455: you did it well on the throttle response! Hope i will have not the same issues. You have a much newer ECU with tricky torque settings/limitatons. My EDC4 is kind of old school. Hope it will be easier to outsmart the limiters. i see you did the exhaust and downpipe as well. Nice! The OM642 LS (268 hp) engine is much stronger than my old OM642 first generation counterpart. The OM642LS turbocharger has ballbearings and a bigger compressor housing as well. It is physically a smaller turbocharger from the compressor/turbine wheels (2260) than my new hybrid turbo (2365). But i would guess your turbo flows as much as the hybrid journal bearing turbo in praxis because the ballbearings are spinning the turbocharger axis/wheels to more rpm (less resistance), resulting in better flow in comparison to the journal bearing turbocharger. I would guess I will need more boost pressure for the same hp/torque output for sure= more heat. No good.
Anyway i decided to go to an upgrade journal bearing turbocharger because it is almost plug n play and a massive upgrade to the stock turbo.
BTW i like that you didn´t forget your fuel consumption targets when remapping your engine. Most of the time were off boost/power and gas is pretty expensive at these times. Very good!
Here are some pics of the new upgrade turbocharger in comparison to the stock unit. As far as i know the turbocharger actuator has been rebuild as well and the company use mellet bearings for the rebuild.! The new turbo (gtb instead of gta) has an exhaust gas temperature port at the turbine. I will fit a new temperature sensor to the turbine housing and connect it to the ECU (instead of the stock sensor located at the catalytic converter). Mainly for better readings / mapping results.
For the exhaust / downpipe i will be using 3" piping as well and no DPF. I do not want to miss the catalytic converter. I am using a 200 cell euro4 metalic cat instead of the stock Mercedes unit.. No real power loss and no smell of a diesel truck ;-).
I change the CLK W209 320 CDI exhaust (muffler / DPF) to a CLK 500 gasoline exhaust. It hast almost 3" piping and a straigt through resonator / design. I need "only" the dowpipe to be made and connected to the CLK500 exhaust.

 

[suty455]

Just be careful with the 3" pipes, mine is at the limit for the pipes any less output and 3" would be too much, turbo diesels dont respond to large pipes the same way as petrols and they can develop flat spots I would personally look at perhaps 2 3/4 instead unless your pushing close to 270 bhp, the standard one on mine was 2 and a half inch I think
The flow of the turbo is limited not by bearings or spin speed but by the actual size of the housing there is a point where the air cannot compress any further and you can get compressor stall so you use a bigger turbo and then you get lag, hence the hybrids smaller one side than the other but with less lag than you would expect for the given compressor wheel. Your turbo looks like its off a later model as they had a bigger inlet and wheel so should give good results but if you can I would rolling road tune it, bespoke maps are much better than off the shelf stuff, the most important consideration for TDs is the EGT so very close monitoring of than needs to be done.

 

[No2fast]

Just be careful with the 3" pipes, mine is at the limit for the pipes any less output and 3" would be too much, turbo diesels dont respond to large pipes the same way as petrols and they can develop flat spots I would personally look at perhaps 2 3/4 instead unless your pushing close to 270 bhp, the standard one on mine was 2 and a half inch I think
The flow of the turbo is limited not by bearings or spin speed but by the actual size of the housing there is a point where the air cannot compress any further and you can get compressor stall so you use a bigger turbo and then you get lag, hence the hybrids smaller one side than the other but with less lag than you would expect for the given compressor wheel. Your turbo looks like its off a later model as they had a bigger inlet and wheel so should give good results but if you can I would rolling road tune it, bespoke maps are much better than off the shelf stuff, the most important consideration for TDs is the EGT so very close monitoring of than needs to be done.

Hi,
the exhaust gas temperature is limited by the ECU (EGT sensor) >=1000°C. If have seen it in the DAS/XENTRY settings. I would guess after that, the engine goes to limp mode. But i can be totally wrong Anyway. I agree, EGT is critical and i have to monitor the temperature.
I am not using tuned files anymore, the engine will be tuned on the autobahn. With the EGT sensor mounted pre turbine i have enough senors for the remapping process: EGT, Lambda (AFR). MAF, RPM, boost, load and rail pressure. Thats the good thing from the autobahn. i can put her in manual mode and fith or six gear and go WOT while i can montor and log parameters. Afterwards the tuner is recalculating the maps for me until we get the best results. I can log calculated torque and hp as well, so we hopefully see whats missing.
It will be not 100 percent perfect for sure, but i don´t want to spend 1000 or 1500 euro for a professional tune. As long as we can build a perfect smoke map and crispy throttle response, i am positive and confident.

 

[No2fast]

Apropos 3" piping...

3" downpipe with race cat and 2 3/4 exhaust, aprx 1.5m long with the resonator and muffler ;-)

 

[suty455]

Hi,
the exhaust gas temperature is limited by the ECU (EGT sensor) >=1000°C. If have seen it in the DAS/XENTRY settings. I would guess after that, the engine goes to limp mode. But i can be totally wrong Anyway. I agree, EGT is critical and i have to monitor the temperature.
I am not using tuned files anymore, the engine will be tuned on the autobahn. With the EGT sensor mounted pre turbine i have enough senors for the remapping process: EGT, Lambda (AFR). MAF, RPM, boost, load and rail pressure. Thats the good thing from the autobahn. i can put her in manual mode and fith or six gear and go WOT while i can montor and log parameters. Afterwards the tuner is recalculating the maps for me until we get the best results. I can log calculated torque and hp as well, so we hopefully see whats missing.
It will be not 100 percent perfect for sure, but i don´t want to spend 1000 or 1500 euro for a professional tune. As long as we can build a perfect smoke map and crispy throttle response, i am positive and confident.

You never want a EGT of more than 650Deg c any more and it will cause damage on a long term usage race engines it doesnt matter as they get rebuilt regularly, remember a diesel engine unlike petrol gets hotter the more smoke it produces ie the richer it gets, am not sure if you have or will be doing but a uprated intercooler is something you should be looking at to allow a more balanced mix and cooler inlet temps

 

[No2fast]

Okay. Thanks for the info. I have seen on german forums 850-900°C ist not unusal for tuned diesels. But on amercian truck forums they recommend not to go over 1200-1300°F > around 650-700°C under heavy loads. I did not monitor before, but i have seen in Mercedes XENTRY diagnostics that the limit is set up to 1000°C. Here from another car (sorry in german): No 8652 ->B1911 temperature sensor before turbocharger setpoint <=1000C

 

[suty455]

Okay. Thanks for the info. I have seen on german forums 850-900°C ist not unusal for tuned diesels. But on amercian truck forums they recommend not to go over 1200-1300°F > around 650-700°C under heavy loads. I did not monitor before, but i have seen in Mercedes XENTRY diagnostics that the limit is set up to 1000°C. Here from another car (sorry in german): No 8652 ->B1911 temperature sensor before turbocharger setpoint <=1000C

Hmm ok bear in mind Aluminium castings will start to melt before that, the Damage from high EGT is progressive from heatsoak, you will also cook the oil in the turbo bearings if you run it at those temps consistently and block the oilway stay below 700c or it will end in tears

 

[No2fast]

Done:
3" downpipe / 200 cell euro4 catalytic converter
CLK500 2.75" exhaust (straight through resonator + muffler)

Next step:
turbocharger upgrade

Stock primary and secondary cat + dpf eliminated.

OM642 3"downpipe W209 CLK320 CDI

3" stainless steel downpipe, 3" metallic spun cat (euro4), stock 2.75" exhaust W209 CLK500

vimeo.com

 

[SaundersW203]

How are you getting on with this build?
I think I have a turbo in pipe that replaces the restrictive stock one that might be useful to you.
I used to have an om642 with a gt2365v, intercooler etc.
I have since replaced the car, I had to try a c63 with a M156 in.

You will be fine with 900°C EGT's btw. Just keep an eye on the exhaust manifolds, when they are hot and under increased pressure, they split. If your lucky your turbo wont ingest one like mine did

 

[SaundersW203]

You never want a EGT of more than 650Deg c any more and it will cause damage on a long term usage race engines it doesnt matter as they get rebuilt regularly, remember a diesel engine unlike petrol gets hotter the more smoke it produces ie the richer it gets, am not sure if you have or will be doing but a uprated intercooler is something you should be looking at to allow a more balanced mix and cooler inlet temps

When was the last time you logged EGT's on a diesel?
Please stop giving people on this forum incorrect information.
You are correct, more fuel is more heat, but 650°C isn't hot for diesel EGT's.
A lot of diesel cars will run over 800°C brand new out of the factory. The only reason they don't run them hotter is because of the increased emissions as you go above 800°C(ish).

 

[No2fast]

Hi,
i did not fit the turbocharger yet. But probabely next month. i had to replace the intercooler and all suspension parts on the car first. Which i did

updates

OM642 sprinter 906 manifold adaption (no flaps / no egr valve) autometer egt probe / exhaust manifold exhaust backpressure sensor mod / exhaust manifold egr cooler delete (mechanically) egr delete (mechanically)

34plus2.jimdofree.com

Where did you get your turbocharger?
Thanks for the warning. I will not add to much boost (max 2.1 bar).

 

[SaundersW203]

The 7 speed auto gearbox is rated for 700Nm of continuous torque. I was certainly running a lot more than that, the gearbox will be fine. As long as it has been serviced regularly.

 

[No2fast]

Do you think the stock inlet pipe is too restrictive?

 

[SaundersW203]

Hi,
i did not fit the turbocharger yet. But probabely next month. i had to replace the intercooler and all suspension parts on the car first. Which i did

updates

OM642 sprinter 906 manifold adaption (no flaps / no egr valve) autometer egt probe / exhaust manifold exhaust backpressure sensor mod / exhaust manifold egr cooler delete (mechanically) egr delete (mechanically)

34plus2.jimdofree.com

Where did you get your turbocharger?
Thanks for the warning. I will not add to much boost (max 2.1 bar).

You will be fine pushing more than 2.1bar of boost. I fitted a 4 bar MAP sensor for a reason, haha. I actually found it easier to control the boost when you work it a little harder.
Any queries with tuning/ data logs etc I will try to help. The aftermarket support for these engines and ECU's is poor.
I'm lucky to have had the knowledge and skills to re-calibrate the ECU myself, so I have spent countless hours messing with the edc16cp31 and the om642 engine