On-the-spot fines planned for careless driving

[MOCAŠ]

BBC News - On-the-spot fines planned for careless driving

Good news on the face of it, but it does not seem to address the root cause of tail-gating and 'undertaking': poor lane discipline. I think it's high time drivers were allowed to pass on either side when safe to do so, but I think it's one of those measures that will never be introduced because no-one would want to carry the can for the first accident that occurred as a result of it.

 

[st13phil]

Agree wholeheartedly about the issue of poor lane discipline. This is one of those things that sounds good until you scratch beneath the surface when it becomes clearer that root cause issues seem to have been ignored, and then there's the question of whether there is actually sufficient trafpol presence in the first place.

 

[Charles Morgan]

For the first time I may actually write in to lobby the minister, who at least has made a good start. I quite agree about the poor lane discipline - driving down the A23 last week, there is a spot where you can see for about a mile. The outer lane was chocker, the inner lane was totally and completely empty for that mile ahead. Now, I was doing 70mph (honest) and I could have undertaken every single car in that outer lane, all of whom were too close, braking and generally doing about 60mph. I didn't, but it should be a legitimate option.

 

[EDZ649]

For the first time I may actually write in to lobby the minister, who at least has made a good start. I quite agree about the poor lane discipline - driving down the A23 last week, there is a spot where you can see for about a mile. The outer lane was chocker, the inner lane was totally and completely empty for that mile ahead. Now, I was doing 70mph (honest) and I could have undertaken every single car in that outer lane, all of whom were too close, braking and generally doing about 60mph. I didn't, but it should be a legitimate option.

I complety agree, other countries allow it and it works well. Plus it helps to stop people getting frustrated when being stuck behind a lane hogger and taking risks to get past.

 

[Palfrem]

There is plenty of legal (?) undertaking on the M42 near me. Specifically Junctions 3,4,5,6, etc. where the hard shoulder is opened in times of congestion.

Haven't seen a rise in accidents as a result.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

I must admit that in a situation like the one Charles was in, I would undertake whilst shaking my head at those all stuck to each others bumpers in the 'fast' lane.

I suppose it all boils down to the fact that people are always in a rush to get where they are going nowadays...

 

[jepho]

While more regulation does seem, on its face, to be a desirable thing and something that should be applauded, I would like to see greatly improved training for drivers. If I could have a pound for every driving instructor I have seen doing dumb things, I would be very wealthy. The initiative to catch and punish law-breakers is not something with which many people will disagree.

I find it frustrating that drivers, with demonstrably poor skills, are not given any incentive to increase their skill levels. It is a waste of police manpower, in my view, to have highly trained police officers stopping idiots that appear oblivious to every other driver, just to wag an official finger at them. Net gain in the coffers something (possibly) after deducting the cost of a fully kitted out and crewed police car and all of the necessary support services to keep them mobile and on the road.

As for letting people undertake... absolutely No! I think the dumbest drivers have trouble finding an appropriate lane already. Allocating another one to them, which will require better driving skills, will be a huge mistake in my opinion and is a recipe for anarchic and chaotic road conditions.

The contribution to an overall improvement in driver skill levels is highly likely to be none at all. When are we going to wake up to the notion that driving is a learned skill and, ideally, is something which should be improving with experience. It should not be about a basic set of rules for driving safely... which inevitably will end up deteriorating as we drive for a greater number of years. Advanced courses should be made available and taken as a matter of course. This would assist with experience being married to greater road awareness, knowledge and practical skills. Skills usually drift away from the ideal where they are not practised to a high enough standard and if there is no impartial evaluation of them over a period of time.

 

[Spinal]

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that if there is space to undertake, someone is in the wrong lane. I would want to see the person in the right lane prosecuted! Lane discipline is appaling in the UK - and that's coming from someone of Italian origin!

M.

 

[snoop51]

I complety agree, other countries allow it and it works well. Plus it helps to stop people getting frustrated when being stuck behind a lane hogger and taking risks to get past.

I'm with you on this. Isn't there something about you can undertake queuing traffic? When is a queue actually a queue, is there a set speed above which slower moving traffic is no longer a queue? I think as long as you undertake in a controlled manner without swinging wildly from lane to lane forcing others to brake then it should be allowed. As others have said it works elsewhere and as driving instructors now seem to be teaching new drivers to sit in the overtaking lane for 1 1/2 miles prior to turning right (A133 out of Colchester towards university) after coming of the roundabout why shouldn't one undertake? Lets face it any change of direction should be pre-empted by "Mirror, Signal, Manouevre" so where is the danger if people do this? It is one thing they still do teach when learning to drive.

1 new driver I know seriously thought the left hand lane on a motorway / dual carriageway was for LGV's and buses not cars!!!!! No wonder we have so much road rage if the teaching standard is such that we now have people passing driving tests thinking that.

 

[Charles Morgan]

There is plenty of legal (?) undertaking on the M42 near me. Specifically Junctions 3,4,5,6, etc. where the hard shoulder is opened in times of congestion.

Haven't seen a rise in accidents as a result.

It is quite lawful if traffic in the inner lanes is moving at a higher speed because of congestion in the outer lanes. Otherwise every time someone brakes in the outer lane those who pass it on the inside without moderating their speed would be breaking the law.

It is merely that the definition of congested leaves much to be desired. I have been on the 4 lane section of the M40 just past the M25 turn off and there have been three empty inner lanes with a loon doing 60 mph in the outermost. By no possible definition could the outer lane be described as congested so if I went past in the inner lane at 70mph, perfectly safely, would I be in breach of the law. Frankly, I don't want that to be at the discretion of a police officer.

 

[MOCAŠ]

I'm with you on this. Isn't there something about you can undertake queuing traffic? When is a queue actually a queue, is there a set speed above which slower moving traffic is no longer a queue? I think as long as you undertake in a controlled manner without swinging wildly from lane to lane forcing others to brake then it should be allowed.

Yes, there is provision in the highway code for overtaking on the left.

Rule 163 includes: "onlny overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so" and "If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left."

In response to a recent enquiry, Honest John (the Telegraph's motoring journalist) placed a very broad interpretation on this, basically claiming that undertaking was legal if you could pass traffic in the outer lanes without breaking the speed limit. I will see if I can dig out his exact words.

Have to admit that I now routinely overtake on the left if drivers fail to respond to a couple of polite flashes of the headlights (and there is no room to pass on the right). I do so very cautiously, ready to react if the other driver shows any sign of moving into my lane. Never had an incident yet, and a look in my mirror afterwards usually reveals that the other driver remains steadfastly in whichever wrong lane he was in.

Agree with CM about the M40 between the M25/A335 junctions (J1A/2). It was widended to four lanes at considerable environmental (and financial) expense, yet I have yet to see the four lanes being used sensibly, if at all. I'm convinced that stretch could get by with two lanes most of the time, three at others.

 

[GordonTarling]

It might seem OK to introduce measures such as this and they probably even seem like a good idea to some people, BUT, who is going to police them? I have held the opinion for many years now that we need a 'Highway Patrol' department, whose job it is just to police the roads, rather than lumping traffic duties in with all the other work that the regular Police have to do. However, this would take money and other resources, so it's never going to happen!

 

[Spinal]

It might seem OK to introduce measures such as this and they probably even seem like a good idea to some people, BUT, who is going to police them? I have held the opinion for many years now that we need a 'Highway Patrol' department, whose job it is just to police the roads, rather than lumping traffic duties in with all the other work that the regular Police have to do. However, this would take money and other resources, so it's never going to happen!

You mean like traffic enforcement officers?

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/vosa_traffic_enforcement

 

[Mercy1]

I don't undertake because that manoeuvre is currently not acceptable in current driving law and practice, but I agree that changing that law is the only way to solve the problem of lane hogging on our congested motorways, and why not?
Let's face it, so long as a driver stays in a straight line (and doesn't do anything silly like changing lanes without indication) then it does not matter whether cars coming up behind overtake him on the right or left. Said driver can and should move to the left himself when it is clear to do so. No problem, we all know what to expect, and all lanes used to capacity.
I hate being undertaken, but if I'm honest I guess it's not so much because safety is compromised (I can see under-takers (!) coming a mile off), but because being British we don't like to see other pushy b*ggers getting away with pushing in - illegally even! Tut tut.

 

[snoop51]

I don't undertake because that manoeuvre is currently not acceptable in current driving law and practice, but I agree that changing that law is the only way to solve the problem of lane hogging on our congested motorways, and why not?
Let's face it, so long as a driver stays in a straight line (and doesn't do anything silly like changing lanes without indication) then it does not matter whether cars coming up behind overtake him on the right or left. Said driver can and should move to the left himself when it is clear to do so. No problem, we all know what to expect, and all lanes used to capacity.
I hate being undertaken, but if I'm honest I guess it's not so much because safety is compromised (I can see under-takers (!) coming a mile off), but because being British we don't like to see other pushy b*ggers getting away with pushing in - illegally even! Tut tut.

And there's one of the other problems nowadays. Lack of or incorrect indication it's like some people think everyone else is psychic. Anyone else use tarrot cards or a glass ball whilst driving?

 

[MOCAŠ]

In response to a recent enquiry, Honest John (the Telegraph's motoring journalist) placed a very broad interpretation on this, basically claiming that undertaking was legal if you could pass traffic in the outer lanes without breaking the speed limit. I will see if I can dig out his exact words.

Here goes; letter first, then response:

Having driven often in South Africa, I realise the value of being able to overtake legally on either side on roads with three or more lanes. It makes hogging pointless and means much better use of road space. Back in Britiain, I have tried to establish whether undertaking is illegal or not and I get conflicting answers, even from police officers. The consensus seems to be that it is legal, provided you do not keep changing lanes in order to do so. Is that correct?
JH, London

It isn't illegal unless you are seen to be weaving in and out of traffic, which might be deemed "dangerous driving" by a police officer observing your activity from a car or via cameras. But it's perfectly fine to drive along the mostly unobstructed nearside lane of a motorway at 70mph passing all the people hogging the centre and outside lanes at 60mph, taking care to watch for centre-lane hoggers giving up and moving into the correct lane. The other drivers are in the wrong lanes, not you. Sometimes the dot matrix signs tell you to stay in lane due to congestion. You are not then compelled to brake because vehicles to your right have slowed down and you are passing them.
​

OK, so I know Honest John isn't necessarily an authority on the subject, and he could be wrong about this, but that's a bold statement for a respected motoring journalist to make in a national newspaper.

 

[Sp!ke]

I think it's high time drivers were allowed to pass on either side when safe to do so,

From personal experience of driving in the US on a number of occasions, I dont think this is a good idea at all - not if ones aim is to make good progress that is, as what happens is that every lane ends up driving at the same speed (about 60mph). Mr and Mrs middle lane driver considers he/she has the god given right to pootle along in any lane of their choosing at the same time as one another with the resultant effect being a rolling blockade.

The reduced speeds may well cause less road deaths but I suspect the likelihood of collision is higher.

 

[snoop51]

From personal experience of driving in the US on a number of occasions, I dont think this is a good idea at all - not if ones aim is to make good progress that is, as what happens is that every lane ends up driving at the same speed (about 60mph). Mr and Mrs middle lane driver considers he/she has the god given right to pootle along in any lane of their choosing at the same time as one another with the resultant effect being a rolling blockade.

The reduced speeds may well cause less road deaths but I suspect the likelihood of collision is higher.

Yet I've never had any problem over there on the occasions I've been other than the crap hire cars I've had which just make more noise when the accelerator is pressed rather than accelerating.

 

[219]

Of course , part of the problem is caused by speed limits .

Lane hoggers often have the mindset ' I am traveling at the maximum permitted speed , so why should I move over ? , and ' To H*** with anyone who wants to go faster ' .

Remove the speed limits on certain roads and lane hogging / tailgating would go away overnight .

No one sits in the outside lanes of unrestricted Autobahns .

 

[MOCAŠ]

Of course , part of the problem is caused by speed limits .

Lane hoggers often have the mindset ' I am traveling at the maximum permitted speed , so why should I move over ? , and ' To H*** with anyone who wants to go faster ' .

Remove the speed limits on certain roads and lane hogging / tailgating would go away overnight .

No one sits in the outside lanes of unrestricted Autobahns .

I'm not so sure. I see what you're saying, but people with that mindset will tend to hold their ground regardless.