PCN - is there a time limit?

[Hi-Ho Silver]

You turned right and crossed a broken white line! I believe that the junction was incorrectly marked. It is not a contravention to cross broken white lines, so i'd probably argue that the road was incorrectly marked.

Please check this before mounting a challenge but I believe the broken white line in the centre of the road you were turning right into should have been a solid white line. This will all be stated in the TRO's (Traffic Regulation Orders) for that road and if what they're trying to enforce is in breach of the TRO's or the TRO's are in breach of the Highway code etc, you stand a good chance of causing the a great deal of concern because they'd have to refund every PCN which had ever been paid for the stated 'contravention'.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[MOCAŠ]

Just had a look on Streetview and it seems that you were turning out of Gordon Road. Interestingly, Google appear to have captured the point at which the mini roundabout was being converted into a T-junction.

On the "before" shots, looking towards the High St from Gordon Road, it's evident that there is a "Traffic enforcement cameras" sign and a "No entry" sign to the right (apparently because that part of the High St is not open to general traffic).

On the "after" shots, they've clearly added some signs ahead of the junction in Gordon Road. Can't tell what they are as I can only see the backs of them, but presumably they are indicating left turn only except for access. It is also evident that you would not have been allowed to do a U-turn after turning left, as there are two "No U-turn" signs in place (for obvious reasons).

Of course, this doesn't necessarily reflect the signage that would have been in place when you were there.

 

[Hi-Ho Silver]

Challenge it! If nothing else, challenge the PCN on the basis that if they need a permanent camera to 'catch' motorists turning right at that junction, that the junction has insufficient markings on it to prevent that from happening. Why is there a no right turn there?

(hint) The picture you posted doesn't show any signs or road markings for no right turns and the main road allows traffic to turn right onto the road you were exiting. I still think the white line should be a solid one across the part of the junction you crossed, because then you would have definitely known you were going wrong.

As Mocas (with the little thing over the 's') has shown, the junction is now clearly marked at the mini- roundabout......until you go to streetview. Then you get two different sets of photos. One with and one without the roadworks. Go up Gordon road a little and there's a digger etc, go back to the mini roundabout and there's a new junction.

btw, one of the reasons i'm doing this is not only because i hope you don't pay the nonsense fine but also because when I was younger, I used to spend a great deal of time in Wealdtone and i'm a little lost looking at it now.

 

[MOCAŠ]

challenge the PCN on the basis that if they need a permanent camera to 'catch' motorists turning right at that junction, that the junction has insufficient markings on it to prevent that from happening. Why is there a no right turn there?

I'm not sure this argument would wash. Cameras are routinely used to enforce infringements that motorists would once have expected to get away with, from speeding to blocking box junctions - and illegal turns. Not casting any aspersions at the OP here - just making a general point.

The reason you can't turn right there is that the southern part of the High Street is a pedestian zone, with special access for buses and delivery vehicles. Even when it was still a mini-roundabout, there was still no right turn out of Gordon Road (as can be seen on the aerial view). At that time, you couldn't turn into Gordon Road there either as it was cycle-access only, so the roundabout was just to allow drivers travelling south on the High Street to turn back.

With the new junction, it is now possible to enter Gordon Road by turning right off the High Street, which may explain why the centreline is not solid. However, the signs that have been added in Gordon Road are definitely 'No right turn' signs.

 

[Hi-Ho Silver]

I take your point about the cameras but I think that anything which can be used against a council for such money-making scams, should be. So what if Marque turned right?! It's not a crime, just a mistake. The time is coming when driver error will not instantly result in a nonsense fine which does bugger all to reduce further driver error.

Nobody in Sussex is switching off cameras to save money/ due to budget cuts.

I'd still say that the stated contravention is not demonstrated in the picture, just a car turning right across a broken white line.

"Show me the signage!" - Gerald Maguire, Milton Keynes milkfloat magnate

 

[MOCAŠ]

Not defending the policy, just providing some information. If the ticket can be challenged successfully then the OP should give it a go, but I think he'll need a stronger argument that relying on the presence of the camera itself.

The photo shows the car turning right, though I agree it doesn't show the signage. As I acknowledged in my previous post, we don't know what signage was in place at the time the OP was there, but I took a slight detour en route to visiting a friend in Pinner yesterday and checked that the signs there now are indeed 'No right turn'; didn't take any photos though. However, speeding camera photos don't usually show the speed limit signs, or the fact that the car is actually speeding - just that the car was there and a computer-generated overprint of the caluclated speed. On that basis, the OP's photo is more conclusive.

Also, I've been thinking about the idea that there should have been a solid centreline, and I'm not at all sure that it applies in this case. Highway code rule 129 covers solid centrelines, and states:

Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

In order words, you can cross them to make a turning if you're on the road where they're painted, so it would not be logical to use them to prevent someone from joining the same carriageway from a side road. I'm pretty sure they're only aimed at discouraging inappropriate overtaking.

 

[Hi-Ho Silver]

Gotcha. Thanks Mocas. I have always treated solid white lines like brick walls.

found this:
FightBack Forums -> Cameras and other Enforcement Devices
PPC Letters/Threats: What to Expect (please add your own) - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums