Police caution for simple accident

[GDAWG10]

@Bobby Dazzler

From the front. I was just highlighting my experience driving on busy London roads. I've been in situations where I've been about to turn right from a standing start, and the path is clear, the lane coming in the opposite direction is clear, but a food delivery bike has come at speed from the opposite direction and cut across the opposite lane who are turning right, gone in-between cars and gone straight ahead of my path. And not only bikes, but having been in Uber cars and seen the manoeuvres and driving abilities of some of these "professional drivers", they leave a lot to be desired to the say the least.

I'm not portioning blame on anyone and it doesn't matter. I just wanted to highlight based on my experiences it's impossible to go by general logic or debate who could have been at fault.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

So all of these points basically say
" you don't see it"
Or am I wrong?

You can stretch the science out, but thats whats being said.

Its part of being human.

I don’t believe the explanations are “stretching science”, they’re doing just that, they’re explaining why people don’t see things which are right in front of them.

 

[Ted]

Interesting these theories on not being able to see a motorcyclist, but how often does a motorcyclist not see another motorcyclist and pull out/turn across them?

 

[190]

It’s not just the size of the object, it’s the length of time we spend looking to see if there’s one there.

If there is a key message that car drivers should take from the science then this is it. Spend more time looking and you will see.

Interesting these theories on not being able to see a motorcyclist, but how often does a motorcyclist not see another motorcyclist and pull out/turn across them?

Experienced motorcyclists already spend more time looking which is why they survive and don't turn in front of others

 

[theworkerb]

My thoughts also. AFAIK mopeds are restricted to 30 mph or so, in which case it's unlikely it was going too fast (on a main road). Glad to hear the rider was OK and hope it all gets sorted without too much hassle.

30mph!? Umm when was the last time you went on a moped? Haha I assure you they go a lot quicker than 30mph lol those electric scooters with a mod can easily do 30mph

 

[Nicebutdim]

As I understand it, it was a verbal caution as standard practice and not an official written caution which means it shouldn't go on any record I think. They gave my mother an incident number, when the police had finished they told her not to speak to the bike driver, "don't admit liability, say nothing" and go home. The insurance are dealing with it initially as 50/50.

For information, a formal police caution is considered to be ”spent” immediately it is given.

This means it doesn’t need to be declared for insurance purposes and in most case on job applications.

All part of the Rehabilitation of offenders legislation.

 

[Dryce]

For information, a formal police caution is considered to be ”spent” immediately it is given.

This means it doesn’t need to be declared for insurance purposes and in most case on job applications.

All part of the Rehabilitation of offenders legislation.

The type of caution that you are referring to is the equivalent of a formal warning.

In the situation described this is unlikely - the OP's mum would have been given a caution before she was asked to give a statement of her account of what happened. This is in effect normal process.

The police may subsequently decide to follow up and take action against the parties involved if they decide there are grounds to do so.

 

[Dryce]

Experienced motorcyclists already spend more time looking which is why they survive and don't turn in front of others

They also don't have big fat A Pillars to obscure their vision.

These days I reckon a significant minority of motorcyclists have limited hazard perception and limited understanding of the Highway Code. I suspect they survive because of car drivers (on the whole) being reasonably observant as opposed to surviving because of their experience.

 

[Nicebutdim]

The type of caution that you are referring to is the equivalent of a formal warning.

In the situation described this is unlikely - the OP's mum would have been given a caution before she was asked to give a statement of her account of what happened. This is in effect normal process.

The police may subsequently decide to follow up and take action against the parties involved if they decide there are grounds to do so.

Yes, unfortunately the word caution is used for both a caution used under PACE prior to interview and a formal Police caution which may arise after investigation.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Interesting these theories on not being able to see a motorcyclist, but how often does a motorcyclist not see another motorcyclist and pull out/turn across them?

I laugh sometimes at the lengths people go to defend their own behaviours and those of others similar to their own - here we’ve got a poor biker whose been skittled by a car and it’s being blamed on some pseudo-peripheral disorder instead of simply admitting they weren’t paying attention!

 

[markjay]

I laugh sometimes at the lengths people go to defend their own behaviours and those of others similar to their own - here we’ve got a poor biker whose been skittled by a car and it’s being blamed on some pseudo-peripheral disorder instead of simply admitting they weren’t paying attention!

The advice I once received from a lawyer many many years ago was to never say (if involved in a crash) "I didn't see him/her". Because the Police or the Court will tell me "Well, you should have!". Luckily - touch wood - I didn't need to use this particular piece of advice in the past 30 years - may it so continue.

 

[markjay]

If there is a key message that car drivers should take from the science then this is it. Spend more time looking and you will see.

^^^^
This.

But understanding your limitation is the first step in mitigation.

 

[GDAWG10]

I laugh sometimes at the lengths people go to defend their own behaviours and those of others similar to their own - here we’ve got a poor biker whose been skittled by a car and it’s being blamed on some pseudo-peripheral disorder instead of simply admitting they weren’t paying attention!

I trust that you were there at the incident. No biker has ever been at fault for an accident or driven recklessly?

Apply the same standards to both parties and in general. Cars and bikers can be at fault and it's not exclusive to either / or in every scenario depending on the decisions taken by either party in the specific incident. Here we are jumping to assumptions regarding a food delivery moped rider (with L plates).

As I said before, car drivers can be at fault and are at fault but to jump to the sort of assumptions you make in your post seems odd considering the driving standards of food deliver moped riders in London.

 

[190]

The learning from this thread has nothing to do with apportioning blame. It has to do with understanding that even when a cycle/moped/motorcycle is obeying all rules and speed limits, it's possible that you may not see them. If nothing else, an awareness of the fact that there is science behind how that can occur, should convince us that to look but not see is a very real possibility. Armed with that knowledge we just need to look with a little more care on the next execution of a right turn and for me personally, an awareness of the science reminds me to take that extra care.

 

[Bellow]

She was turning right from a main road into a residential road and collided with a moped going in the other direction which cut across her path.

Which direction - the intended or original?

If the former and the moped emerged turning right across her bows then more fool the moped rider.
If the latter then text book how to take a biker out of the game.

 

[ToeKnee]

About five years ago I was on a main road, stationery, waiting to turn right when I was involved in an accident with a motorbike. Sat there innocently, indicator flashing away, when this motorbike ran into the back of my car! He claimed I slammed my brakes on and just stopped in front of him, fortunately my dash cam and three customers I had in the car at the time all proved he was incorrect. It's not always just motorists who don't look where they're going.....

 

[markjay]

I trust that you were there at the incident. No biker has ever been at fault for an accident or driven recklessly?

Apply the same standards to both parties and in general. Cars and bikers can be at fault and it's not exclusive to either / or in every scenario depending on the decisions taken by either party in the specific incident. Here we are jumping to assumptions regarding a food delivery moped rider (with L plates).

As I said before, car drivers can be at fault and are at fault but to jump to the sort of assumptions you make in your post seems odd considering the driving standards of food deliver moped riders in London.

There's a difference between the scientific definition of being a cause of another event and the legal definition of being 'at-fault'. The two are often mixed-up.

There are many 'causes' for a crash - including the behaviour of all parties involved, the condition of the road, the weather, the vehicles, etc. If you could change any of these, the outcome would have been different.

But the law narrows it down to 'liability' as defined by lawyers - which is an understandable practical necessity.

Another piece of advice I received many years ago... was that the reason why you should never admit liability at the roadside is because you don't actually know if - in the eye of the law - the accident was indeed 'your fault'.

Early-on in my driving career (this event occurred over 40 years ago, from memory...) I took my eyes off the road and crashed into the back of a slower vehicle. No one was hurt, but the damage was considerable (and my own car was totalled). I immediately apologised. To my surprise my insurer later had it down as a no-fault accident and claimed against the other party's insurance. When I queried it, it turned-out that the other car was joining from a slip road and didn't give me right of way (apparently the driver assumed I would see him and slow-down or move-over). The police didn't attend, but had they done, I would have admitted liability there and then - I knew I was driving while not looking ahead. In fact, I didn't even see where the other came from... To this day, I still think it was my fault (and indeed learnt my lesson), BTW, regardless of what the law and the insurer said.

 

[Dryce]

When I queried it, it turned-out that the other car was joining from a slip road and didn't give me right of way (apparently the driver assumed I would see him and slow-down or move-over).

We benefit from the hazard perception of others to protect us from our own mistakes or transgressions.

 

[BTB 500]

30mph!? Umm when was the last time you went on a moped? Haha I assure you they go a lot quicker than 30mph

Never been on a moped, but from a quick Google it seems the maximum speed is 45 kph (28 mph):

Riding a motorcycle, moped or motor tricycle

What you need to do to ride a motorcycle, moped or motor tricycle - tests and training, minimum ages, vehicle requirements, new licence rules

www.gov.uk

 

[theworkerb]

Never been on a moped, but from a quick Google it seems the maximum speed is 45 kph (28 mph):

View attachment 108008

Riding a motorcycle, moped or motor tricycle

What you need to do to ride a motorcycle, moped or motor tricycle - tests and training, minimum ages, vehicle requirements, new licence rules

www.gov.uk

Define moped? Perhaps we're talking about different things as you can get a 125cc scooter which we used to call peds, short for moped which will do 60mph