Police caution for simple accident

[Deleted member 150136]

You are.
You have a Full licence for a moped when you pass you car test....before a certain date, which I've no idea what that is.

I looked into in depth when I have my car licence(I have a bike licence), and one son was 16 with a moped and one son with a car licence, as I had two spare mopeds

It can be a minefield though.

 

[BTB 500]

You are.
You have a Full licence for a moped when you pass you car test....before a certain date, which I've no idea what that is.

I looked into in depth when I have my car licence(I have a bike licence), and one son was 16 with a moped and one son with a car licence, as I had two spare mopeds

It can be a minefield though.

If you passed your car test before 1st Feb 2001 you can ride a moped without CBT, test or L plates:

CBT motorcycle and moped training

When to take motorcycle or moped compulsory basic training (CBT): who needs to take it, how to book the course, and what's involved in the training

www.gov.uk

 

[rf065]

If you passed your car test before 1st Feb 2001 you can ride a moped without CBT, test or L plates:

CBT motorcycle and moped training

When to take motorcycle or moped compulsory basic training (CBT): who needs to take it, how to book the course, and what's involved in the training

www.gov.uk

True, but still doesn't mean you can actually ride a moped!

 

[elan362]

.After my questioning, she saw some sense and realised if anything the bike came out of nowhere, was probably going too fast etc...

Ive had this type of.. “Sorry, i never saw you.... you must have been travelling too fast...” response and it really gets my back up.

I get the “sorry i never saw you...” part.... as i don’t believe the majority of the incidents are deliberate - they are accidental., however the “you must have been going too fast part” is an outrageous attempt at deflection & victim blaming....
however the admission in the first part of ‘Sorry, i never saw you” confirms you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA at what speed the other party was travelling, and it is an attempt to shift blame to the other party with no evidence whatsoever.

 

[MEMERC7]

The comment about 'looking & not seeing' is interesting.
When learning to fly I was warned at the outset of this phenomenon & taught to look properly & be conscious of doing so. I was also taught to scan so as to be 100% spatially aware AND to be constantly alert to the unexpected & to have a plan in place. I apply this to my driving & it sure helps but please don't assume it makes me a better driver, just (hopefully) more aware.

 

[markjay]

The comment about 'looking & not seeing' is interesting.
When learning to fly I was warned at the outset of this phenomenon & taught to look properly & be conscious of doing so. I was also taught to scan so as to be 100% spatially aware AND to be constantly alert to the unexpected & to have a plan in place. I apply this to my driving & it sure helps but please don't assume it makes me a better driver, just (hopefully) more aware.

Your post reminded me of this (See No 1):

5 Life Lessons I Learned As a Fighter Pilot, and How to Apply Them to Business - Obligo

The full interview by Marco Dehry can be read at Authority Magazine. — Authority Magazine: Based on your military experience, can you share with our readers 5 Leadership or Life... Read More

myobligo.com

 

[geoffus]

I ride a bike, you have to be 100% of the surroundings, ride defensive at all times and pretty much accept that no-one can see you.
The amount of bikes out there that travel without headlights on and speed through junctions is very scary, you have to be on your guard all the time, covering your brakes and expect the worst, doing so will hopefully keep you right side up. A lot of the new riders unfortunately don't adhere to this self preservation code and think they are immortal.
Having said that I think driving standards are slipping, drivers not using mirrors, sat navs blocking vision or not bothering to indicate are common faults.
Unfortunately one of the local blackspots around my area is the Garden Centre at weekends.

 

[BTB 500]

Having said that I think driving standards are slipping, drivers not using mirrors, sat navs blocking vision or not bothering to indicate are common faults.

It mostly seems to be phones that people put right in the centre of the screen now, although I've seen the odd tablet stuck there! Pretty obvious when following someone at night. One other thing is that A pillars have got thicker over the years (with tougher safety standards) and you sometimes have to physically move to see round them at junctions (depending on the angles).

 

[Deleted member 65149]

One other thing is that A pillars have got thicker over the years (with tougher safety standards) and you sometimes have to physically move to see round them at junctions (depending on the angles).

It’s not only A pillars that have got thicker, so have the heads of too many drivers unable to move to see round them!

 

[Deleted member 65149]

So this basically is saying you aren't looking properly, you've just took a quick glance.

I'll stand by my earlier posts.

Isn't it driving without due care and attention?

What I’m about to write is not a criticism of you, it’s a criticism of very many motorists it seems.

When lots of drivers think that they’ve looked enough to see if anything is coming, they truly believe that they have looked properly. “Why spend longer looking when you’ve already determined that nothing is there?”, is what they think. Your brain has led you to believe that you have done everything correctly; there is no definition of the time it takes to look properly.

Saccadic masking is a genuine phenomenon that shouldn’t be tossed away as merely needing to “look properly”. By being aware of how it can disguise the true picture it allows drivers to determine when to go above and beyond the previously accepted expectations.

Before we all had ABS in our cars, those of us who wanted to know the most efficient way of stopping on a slippery surface learnt about cadence braking. It was never part of the standard driving test and if someone failed to stop quick enough because they didn’t use it, they weren’t blamed for not braking properly. They simply didn’t know, so they didn’t do it ... and bang!

Wanting to dismiss saccadic masking as just a bit of unnecessary nonsense when all that’s needed is to drive with due care and attention, is to excuse oneself of the need for a bit of more advanced thinking. Knowing why you need to spend longer looking helps to increase the time to sufficient extent to overcome the brain’s limitations.

 

[st13phil]

I apply this to my driving & it sure helps but please don't assume it makes me a better driver, just (hopefully) more aware.

You’ve just described another important factor: attitude. If more people accepted their fallibility and potential for error (like you describe) the roads would be a safer place.

 

[st13phil]

Saccadic masking is a genuine phenomenon

What remains a puzzle to me is that the phenomena is well understood, yet it’s incredibly unusual to find drivers who have been made aware of it as a risk to be aware of and mitigated. For example, simple techniques such as moving your head when you make observations can help enormously, but if you’ve never been made aware of it you just don’t know.

 

[rf065]

What remains a puzzle to me is that the phenomena is well understood, yet it’s incredibly unusual to find drivers who have been made aware of it as a risk to be aware of and mitigated. For example, simple techniques such as moving your head when you make observations can help enormously, but if you’ve never been made aware of it you just don’t know.

I find the people who "just don't know", are the same people who don't watch programs like Top Gear, don't buy motoring magazines, hate motorcycles and really only drive because it's more convenient than walking.
I think you have to have an interest in any subject before you're willing to spend time learning more about it, or to develop/improve your own skills.
The information is out there, but if your not 100% commited or have even have a passing interest, you'll not look or seek to improve to your own advantage.

 

[st13phil]

I think you have to have an interest in any subject before you're willing to spend time learning more about it, or to develop/improve your own skills.

I agree that having an interest in a subject makes a huge difference. Part of my puzzlement is that (to the best of my knowledge) professional driving instructors don’t seem to mention it to new drivers, nor teach them any of the mitigation techniques as part of a systematic approach to observation.

 

[markjay]

You’ve just described another important factor: attitude. If more people accepted their fallibility and potential for error (like you describe) the roads would be a safer place.

I generally put down my 'safe' driving in recent years to... luck.

The way I would describe it, is that on the occasion that I made a mistake, I was lucky enough to have the other driver notice me in time and avoid a crash.

Of course, I could run out of luck if at the same time both me and the other driver won't be concentrating. It's the Swiss cheese model..... but by trying to keep the number of mistakes I make to a minimum, I am reducing the probability of a collision.

(A variation of the above is also true for avoiding single-car accidents - i.e. when I made a mistake the hard shoulder was luckily wide enough, etc).

 

[Deleted member 150136]

What I’m about to write is not a criticism of you, it’s a criticism of very many motorists it seems.

When lots of drivers think that they’ve looked enough to see if anything is coming, they truly believe that they have looked properly. “Why spend longer looking when you’ve already determined that nothing is there?”, is what they think. Your brain has led you to believe that you have done everything correctly; there is no definition of the time it takes to look properly.

is a genuine phenomenon that shouldn’t be tossed away as merely needing to “look properly”. By being aware of how it can disguise the true picture it allows drivers to determine when to go above and beyond the previously accepted expectations.

Before we all had ABS in our cars, those of us who wanted to know the most efficient way of stopping on a slippery surface learnt about cadence braking. It was never part of the standard driving test and if someone failed to stop quick enough because they didn’t use it, they weren’t blamed for not braking properly. They simply didn’t know, so they didn’t do it ... and bang!

Wanting to dismiss saccadic masking as just a bit of unnecessary nonsense when all that’s needed is to drive with due care and attention, is to excuse oneself of the need for a bit of more advanced thinking. Knowing why you need to spend longer looking helps to increase the time to sufficient extent to overcome the brain’s limitations.

I totally agree.

But isn't saccadic masking just not looking enough? That's my point.

From what I've read about it ( only on here) it makes sense, but also, to me as a motorbike rider, heavy goods operator, car driver and cyclist, it is basically saying you haven't thoroughly looked, and took for granted it's clear.

Driving HGV STGO category stuff and riding a bike does make you ride/drive differently, you aren't so 'lazy with your lifesavers and double checks. You do double and triple check that everything is clear.

I dont think this saccadic masking is an excuse, it may be the reason but not the excuse.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

I totally agree.

But isn't saccadic masking just not looking enough? That's my point.

From what I've read about it ( only on here) it makes sense, but also, to me as a motorbike rider, heavy goods operator, car driver and cyclist, it is basically saying you haven't thoroughly looked, and took for granted it's clear.

Driving HGV STGO category stuff and riding a bike does make you ride/drive differently, you aren't so 'lazy with your lifesavers and double checks. You do double and triple check that everything is clear.

I dont think this saccadic masking is an excuse, it may be the reason but not the excuse.

We’re close to agreeing, but not quite there. We agree that the issue is with not looking enough. Where we’re not yet at the same point is in what we regard as “enough”.

It’s not about being lazy, as so many are with indicators for instance, it’s about doing it correctly. The problem is that even the most conscientious and attentive driver can overlook an object or a person when not adopting preventative measures that aren’t natural to us. This is due to the indistinct nature of our peripheral vision that our brains attempt to smooth out with saccadic masking. This isn’t ‘carelessness’ or ‘failing to look properly’, it’s a fundamental limitation – an illusion – of the human visual system.

What follows is the recommended way of overcoming the problem. It was talked about in the video posted earlier (#73) but may not have registered, just like the bike approaching from the side may not have registered. From experience, I can confirm that this method soon becomes second nature.

“Saccadic Masking can be decreased by, instead of doing one continuous head movement from left to right, pausing for a fraction of a second at three points. These points should be once to the left, once directly ahead, and once to the right to check your long, middle and short distance. If you get into the habit of doing this, your eyes will adjust faster and you can complete the procedure quicker. This then stops the eyes from sending incomplete images to the brain. It is recommended that this is completed at least twice each time you are looking to turn. If every driver carried this out, it could reduce the risk of road accidents by one quarter.”

 

[Deleted member 65149]

I dont think this saccadic masking is an excuse, it may be the reason but not the excuse.

Agreed. The excuse is always “I didn’t see him.” The reason for not seeing him was saccadic masking. Everyone here now knows how to avoid it happening to them.

 

[Deleted member 150136]

. It is recommended that this is completed at least twice each time you are looking to turn.

This, you are taught this on a motorcycle, life savers they call them.
You are taught to look, look and look again, on a bike you do as its YOUR life you will be saving.
Same in trucks as you need more time and space to complete the maneuver.

Car drivers(myself included) tend to feel safe and complacent so don't do the double and triple check.

It's the same thing....I think we're agreeing, you're calling it a scientific term, I'm calling it lazy or careless....or maybe just a passing glancing glance to be more polite.

 

[190]

Who remembers this from the 60's. Perhaps they knew more than we realised.

"Look Right, look Left, look Right again"