Police / State Surveillance. A step too far or a good thing?

[neilrr]

Police will keep driving records for five years.

By Sarah Knapton
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 15/09/2008

Police plan to map all journeys made by drivers on major roads and store the data for five years.............

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2008/09/15/mdata115.xml

 

[robert.saunders]

They'll need a very big hard drive

 

[W210 Fan]

From the Telegraph - Simon Bynre, who heads ACPO's ANPR policy said: "Experience has show there are very strong link between illegal use of motor vehicles on the road and other types of serious crime."

so what use is tracking where the car has been if it has been stolen, you are still none the wiser on who is driving it, all you now know is who it has been stolen from,

 

[imadoofus]

My life is dull. If they want to spy on it, then bully for them.

 

[st13phil]

so what use is tracking where the car has been if it has been stolen, you are still none the wiser on who is driving it, all you now know is who it has been stolen from,

Precisely. Never let common sense get in the way of "justifying" a fishing expedition. (And before anyone says it, I know that it may help build up a usage pattern of an illegal vehicle, but that doesn't justify mass surveillance of the populace, IMO.)

 

[st4]

This is disgusting, I am sure the more spineless amongst us will say "what will it matter-I am holier than thou and have nothing to hide" - I say have some pride and get a backbone. Why would you want this even if your perfect.

More importantly, what will this cost to administer, what real purpose does it have, what benefits (real or percieved) will it have. I am sure the state can find better things to spend the money on (and I'll appeal to the lefties out there)- better hospitals, better schools, more teachers (we're short of those) and heaven forbid dare I say it, police officers.

The only consolation is that it won't work.

 

[oldcro]

ANPR camera information has already helped catch terrorists involved in incidents causing death and distruction so if recording my journeys helps then please go ahead.

 

[st4]

so what use is tracking where the car has been if it has been stolen, you are still none the wiser on who is driving it, all you now know is who it has been stolen from,

So the law abiding get snooped on and violated and lowlife roam free.

 

[imadoofus]

So the law abiding get snooped on and violated and lowlife roam free.

You do seem to be partial to a bit of hyperbole, ***. Why would the 'law abiding' be snooped upon and "violated", when the 'lowlife' roam free?

The system isn't selective. Either everybody is potentially under surveillance, or nobody is.

The fact that you may believe the system to iniquitous doesn't mean that it is. I don't support it, necessarily. In truth, I couldn't give a tinker's cuss. But I do believe that the argument that this will target the innocent (much like Donza's recent thread turned into a "Why don't they go out and catch real criminals?" rant) is b0ll0ks

 

[Dieselman]

 

[st4]

You do seem to be partial to a bit of hyperbole, ***. Why would the 'law abiding' be snooped upon and "violated", when the 'lowlife' roam free?

On the basis ANPR tells "them" who the car belongs too. When my car goes thru the ANPR camera it tells "them" that ***'s car was there, and therefore by deduction I was there. If someone stole it for obvious reasons their details won't flag up, so their (the theifs) privacy isn't breached when they drive my car, only my privacy is breached when I drive it.

I feel I my movements, privacy, life is being snooped on and such a scheme is hence a violation etc of the above.

The system isn't selective. Either everybody is potentially under surveillance, or nobody is.

Wrong, everybody is under surveillence who owns/leases a car, the theiving torags and criminals who have false regi plates, false details are not.

The fact that you may believe the system to iniquitous doesn't mean that it is. I don't support it, necessarily. In truth, I couldn't give a tinker's cuss. But I do believe that the argument that this will target the innocent (much like Donza's recent thread turned into a "Why don't they go out and catch real criminals?" rant) is b0ll0ks

Appathy is a vice in modern britain, you should care that the money being spent on this could be better spent, in part its your money as you've paid tax. They won't catch many people with this in reality, just have lots of data that mrX was here @ xpm and then here @ yam.

 

[imadoofus]

On the basis ANPR tells "them" who the car belongs too. When my car goes thru the ANPR camera it tells "them" that ***'s car was there, and therefore by deduction I was there. If someone stole it for obvious reasons their details won't flag up, so their (the theifs) privacy isn't breached when they drive my car, only mine when I drive it.

I feel I my movements, privacy, life is being snooped on and such a scheme is hence a violation etc of the above.

But if you haven't done anything wrong, and your car isn't used for any illegal activity (whilst in your posession), then nobody is going to give a toss about where you've been. Do you really think anybody is going to care? What do you suppose they will do with the information that you went to the supermarket on Tuesday?

Wrong, everybody is under surveillence who owns/leases a car, the theiving torags and criminals who have false regi plates, false details are not.

Precisely. You already mentioned that ANPR will be watching your every move, so why do you suppose that it won't be watching all other cars, with false numberplates or not? If a car on false plates is used for a crime, it will still show up on the ANPR or CCTV, even if the details are wrong. If it's then driven to an industrial estate, it will still have the wrong plates on, so it's still trackable, even if the details are wrong. What solution do you propose for stopping 'toerags' and 'criminals' using false plates?

Appathy is a vice in modern britain, you should care that the money being spent on this could be better spent, in part its your money as you've paid tax. They won't catch many people with this in reality, just have lots of data that mrX was here @ xpm and then here @ yam.

I am not apathetic. I just have more important things to worry about. This will have no adverse affect on my life whatsoever. It may or may not 'catch' people, as you put it; but I ain't going to be one of them because I'm not a criminal. Or a toerag.

Did you know that at any time, when you're driving down the road, a policeman in a car can see you, and check your details on the PNC? HOw often does this happen to you (or me)? I don't know, and neither do you. I don't care because it doesn't affect me. If the copper then goes home and tells his wife he saw a Mercedes today driven by a bloke called Mr Doofus, who he's never heard of before, then so be it.

I might tell my wife I saw a copper in a police car. I doubt he'd be upset either.

 

[st4]

But if you haven't done anything wrong, and your car isn't used for any illegal activity (whilst in your posession), then nobody is going to give a toss about where you've been. Do you really think anybody is going to care? What do you suppose they will do with the information that you went to the supermarket on Tuesday? .

I don't see why they should get to know. Look at in another way, would you like an electonic beacon attached to your leg, and @ certain check points it records you were there and then. Its the same thing, its not too dissimilar to how we treat child molerstors once released from prison, and I for one don't like it.

Precisely. You already mentioned that ANPR will be watching your every move, so why do you suppose that it won't be watching all other cars, with false numberplates or not? If a car on false plates is used for a crime, it will still show up on the ANPR or CCTV, even if the details are wrong. If it's then driven to an industrial estate, it will still have the wrong plates on, so it's still trackable, even if the details are wrong. What solution do you propose for stopping 'toerags' and 'criminals' using false plates?.

Recording a stolen car was once somewhere isn't going to stop car crime, tougher sentancing and prisons that don't have Sky TV might.

I am not apathetic. I just have more important things to worry about. This will have no adverse affect on my life whatsoever. It may or may not 'catch' people, as you put it; but I ain't going to be one of them because I'm not a criminal. Or a toerag..

It should, just see the car as an extension of yourself and then ANPR amounts to electronic tagging- but you haven't commited a crime by driving a car, despite what dillusional eco hippies tell you.

Did you know that at any time, when you're driving down the road, a policeman in a car can see you, and check your details on the PNC? HOw often does this happen to you (or me)? I don't know, and neither do you. I don't care because it doesn't affect me. If the copper then goes home and tells his wife he saw a Mercedes today driven by a bloke called Mr Doofus, who he's never heard of before, then so be it.

I might tell my wife I saw a copper in a police car. I doubt he'd be upset either.

The PNC is a manual operated thing, operated by a person, and it is random, once he has done his bit then its over.

roadside camera's and storing databases on movements is an altogether different thing.

 

[imadoofus]

Well we're not going to agree, although it's good to see that your kneejerk-style of writing seems to have calmed down a bit

I'm bored now, and I've said my piece...

 

[franey]

Police officer: Ah Mr. *** you have reported your wife as being abducted following an armed robbery at your house and all the valuables were taken whilst you were held at the end of a sawn of shotgun?

***: yes that's right constable.

Police officer: Did you see who the offenders were? descriptions or anything?

***: No they all wore balaclavas. But I saw the getaway car VRM ~ABC 123.

Police officer: I'll circulate that vehicle on PNC as being connected with this terrible crime.

***: Wow officer, that's great I hope you catch them, and retrieve my wife.

................some time later!

Police officer: Hi Mr ***, ANPR has spotted the vehicle at several points from your town, it's on th A1 at the moment heading south. Several traffic units are on their way to intercept the car.

***: Super, that's really efficient policing officer, how did you manage to spot the vehicle so quickly?

Police officer: New technology for assisting with crime detection, intelligence and protecting the public like what we get paid for. It's a really good thing called ANPR.

***: Oh erm did you say ANPR??

Police officer: Yes that's right.

***: oh er well erm ahem tchh. I am afraid I don't believe in that sort of thing, count me out, not bothered about the wife anyway or indeed all the valuables or even having a loaded gun at my head. If you could have taken weeks and weeks to do the same job then I'd be all for it but on this occasion....... naar just leave it mate, plenty more fish in the sea.
Goodnight officer, thanks for giving a toss anyway.


Wake up son, it's here for the benefit of Mr Joe Average Citizen. Not a spy cam, who cares if it notes that you drove your car past a camera last Saturday? Not the police, Anpr or anybody else for that matter.

Innocent people, nothing to worry about.
It's here and here to stay. Get over it.

 

[W210 Fan]

Police officer: Ah Mr. *** you have reported your wife as being abducted following an armed robbery at your house and all the valuables were taken whilst you were held at the end of a sawn of shotgun?

***: yes that's right constable.

Police officer: Did you see who the offenders were? descriptions or anything?

***: No they all wore balaclavas. But I saw the getaway car VRM ~ABC 123.

Police officer: I'll circulate that vehicle on PNC as being connected with this terrible crime.

***: Wow officer, that's great I hope you catch them, and retrieve my wife.

................some time later!

Police officer: Hi Mr ***, ANPR has spotted the vehicle at several points from your town, it's on th A1 at the moment heading south. Several traffic units are on their way to intercept the car.

***: Super, that's really efficient policing officer, how did you manage to spot the vehicle so quickly?

Police officer: New technology for assisting with crime detection, intelligence and protecting the public like what we get paid for. It's a really good thing called ANPR.

***: Oh erm did you say ANPR??

Police officer: Yes that's right.

***: oh er well erm ahem tchh. I am afraid I don't believe in that sort of thing, count me out, not bothered about the wife anyway or indeed all the valuables or even having a loaded gun at my head. If you could have taken weeks and weeks to do the same job then I'd be all for it but on this occasion....... naar just leave it mate, plenty more fish in the sea.
Goodnight officer, thanks for giving a toss anyway.


Wake up son, it's here for the benefit of Mr Joe Average Citizen. Not a spy cam, who cares if it notes that you drove your car past a camera last Saturday? Not the police, Anpr or anybody else for that matter.

Innocent people, nothing to worry about.
It's here and here to stay. Get over it.

Ok so thats one thing its good for, and I bet if that system came into place then that sort of crime would dry up? we have a lot of inteligent people on here, what do we think the best way of catching criminals on stolen plates is as this systems seems about as much use as a snooze button on a smoke alarm for this,

cue Franey and Dieselman -

 

[Dieselman]

You got something a bit wrong.

Police officer: Ah Mr. *** you have reported your wife as being abducted following an armed robbery at your house and all the valuables were taken whilst you were held at the end of a sawn of shotgun?

***: yes that's right constable.

Police officer: Did you see who the offenders were? descriptions or anything?

***: No they all wore balaclavas. But I saw the getaway car VRM ~ABC 123.

Police officer: I'll circulate that vehicle on PNC as being connected with this terrible crime.

***: Wow officer, that's great I hope you catch them, and retrieve my wife.

................some time later!

Police officer: Hi Mr ***, ANPR has spotted the vehicle at several points from your town, it's on th A1 at the moment heading south. Several traffic units are on their way to intercept the car.

***: Super, that's really efficient policing officer, how did you manage to spot the vehicle so quickly?

Police officer: New technology for assisting with crime detection, intelligence and protecting the public like what we get paid for. It's a really good thing called ANPR.

***: Oh erm did you say ANPR??

Police officer: Yes that's right.

***: oh er well erm ahem tchh. I am afraid I don't believe in that sort of thing, count me out, not bothered about the wife anyway or indeed all the valuables or even having a loaded gun at my head. If you could have taken weeks and weeks to do the same job then I'd be all for it but on this occasion....... naar just leave it mate, plenty more fish in the sea. much happier because then I could have a really boring unqualified moan and rant about how useless the Police are... I know I'll never actually get off my **** and do anything about situations I don't like, but moaning to people who can't do anything about it either makes me feel powerful, you see...
Goodnight officer, thanks for giving a toss anyway.

 

[franey]

.......and just to add to my piece.........

I have seen thread a plenty on here targeted at the police and how they only eat doughnuts all day sat in a ANPR van.
What about lawyers who manage to spout enough crap to get their clients 'off' on technicalities?
Surely you will have seen plenty of cases in the media about obviously guilty persons walking away 'scott free' from serious crimes?

I see nothing of anyone of you 'anti police' folk pulling to bits the lawyers who just lie, invent stories or just twist things to such a ridiculous extent that their client walks away.

Indeed, the ANPR adds to the toolbox for negating claims by lawyers and suchlike.
On it's own, the Police ANPR is nothing. But coupled with good police work which really does still exist it is such a valuable tool for gathering evidence and contributes immensely to the detection of crime.
Surely you can see the benefit somewhere?

 

[robert.saunders]

Love or hate this thread, genuinely interesting poll result though

 

[franey]

Love or hate this thread, genuinely interesting poll result though

.......and where are you sat Chief Inspector Saunders ? !!!