Possible buyer with Dieselgate fears

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michaelangelo23

New Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2020
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1
Location
London, England
Car
Range rover sport
Hi everyone,
as you can tell from the title, I was looking to purchase a diesel E class estate from around 2017-2018 since my old car (a 2007 land rover) doesn't meet the Euro standards to be able to drive in central london. I've checked and the E-class has low emissions (around 110g/km) and has a Euro 6 engine so it should be compliant with ULEZ standards. However, I've recently been seeing a lot of articles about mercedes dieselgate appearing online and law firms asking people to join a class action. My fear is that upon buying the car mercedes are found guilty to have cheated on their emissions tests, if this happens to be the case, is it possible that the car will no longer fit the ULEZ standards and I will just be left with a car that I can't drive in London once again or is that not what would happen.

Thanks for your help.
 
Welcome to the forum.

1. I think that your fears are misplaced. Any civil legal action taken against Mercedes Benz will have no direct impact on the DVLA emissions classifications. At any rate, Mercedes Issued a software update (via a recall) last year, and the ECUs on cars affected by 'Dieselgate' are gradually being updated to meet their original specifications (the recall is carried-out whenever a car is presented to the dealer for servicing or other work). If you buy a Diesel MB car, you can take it to the dealer to check if the recall has been done, and if not, then they will do it for you for free (assuming your car is one of those affected by the recall).

2. The disclaimer is that MB never officially confirmed that the software update resolves the 'Dieselgate' issue (understandably so - as it will constitute an admission-of-guilt and may potentially jeopardise their position in the civil courts). So the above is very likely to be true on the balance of probabilities, but there's not definitive proof. Maybe this will get clarified during the court hearings (unless MB settle the case before it gets to court).

3. Some owners claimed that their cars performed worse - in terms of mpg and/or performance - after the software update has been applied, which led to many other owners refusing the update. This is in spite of Mercedes Benz officially claiming that the software update has no effect on fuel consumption or performance (but then they would say that...). If you search on this forum you will find several discussions regarding the Diesel software update recall.

4. That said, while I don't think that the outcome of 'Dieselgate' will have any effect on ULEZ, personally I wouldn't buy a Diesel car, especially if you live in or near London. My other car was a EU5 Diesel car, and was replaced by a petrol car, to be replaced by an EV in the next iteration. I think that the writing is on the wall for Diesel-powered private vehicles, a war has been declared on it due to particles and NOx emission, and the low CO2 no longer buys it any favours - this war will not stop at EU6, or in London. Coming soon to a Diesel engine near you, in a town near you. My personal view.

5. In summary, personally I wouldn't buy a Diesel car in the UK in 2020 for the reasons stated above. It may be different if your car will cover high annual mileage, e.g. over 15k a year, in which case the saving of fuel will make it worthwhile to 'take the risk' (as it were) of the car falling out favour with future Diesel-related emissions legislation. Or, if you live in a rural area (which I am aware is not your situation) and only rarely need to drive into any of the UK's larger cities. But either way, I don't think that 'Dieselgate' - and the ensuing civil court case - should have any bearing on these considerations.

Hope this answers your question.
 
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^what he said.

I'm now driving an A35 AMG due to diesel gate. Did have a GTD then a C250 and was targeting a 335d at one point but the diesel issue stopped me.

Driven well I can get close enough to an irresponsibly driven diesel. So two benefits, and I get a fun car at the weekend and I don't drive like a pillock during the week......

..... Saying all that I've not commuted since April.
 
I see you are from the London area and that city is jumping on a band-wagon to easily get more revenue and they will be hammering owners of diesel-powered vehicles. What are the NOX emissions on the very latest motor vehicle diesel engines compared to similar sized petrol engines?

Like I said in another thread, if diesel fumes are so bad, how comes we do not have large numbers of early deaths from employees of our large airports, train maintenance depots etc etc. My thoughts are yes, some car manufacturers were a bit naughty regarding 'cooking the books; but is dieselgate a license for some lawyers to get rich quick?
 
Diesels and to a lesser extent petrols are becoming increasingly complex to meeet ever increasingly stringent emissions - this has lead to radical changes to engine design making for increasing ownership costs outside the warranty period making buying an older car a higher risk prospect. COMPLEX ENGINE DIAGNOSTICS, DIESEL NOX SENSORS , MORE HIGHLY STRESSED TURBO CHARGED SMALLER CAPACITY PETROLS are just a few issues that come to mind. petrol is your better bet=lower risk profile For London EV would be best future proof - for now [ pcp deal] but that has cost and range implications
 
Who knows what anti motoring narratives and laws will come next, especially now TFL is short on cash.

Personally I would lease or buy a cheap disposable car.
 
Who knows what anti motoring narratives and laws will come next, especially now TFL is short on cash.
Track record so far, petrol produced too much CO2 so the government tell all to change to diesels, now too much NOX so now tell us all to switch to hybrid or all electric. Be interested to know in 5-10 years how they will dispose of all the dead batteries from cars, and more to the point, how much do we have to dig out to get the quantities of lithium required?
 
As I understand it when an EV needs new batteries it will likely have to be scrapped for economic reasons.
 
I think there are two questions here; first, if a 2017 E-Class is found to incorporate illegal emissions test defeat devices, would those specific models be recategorised as ineligible for Euro 6 status and thus charged to drive in London? And secondly the more general question, what's the confidence that Euro 6 diesels will continue to be exempt from the ULEZ charge?

On the first question, I think we can look at the VW dieselgate situation as a precedent. The dirty VW diesels were never penalised specifically, the onus was on the manufacturer to make good the situation, individual owners weren't affected. (My parents had two affected cars). So I think the chance of the E-Class diesels being singled out specifically is low. After all, since Mercedes are recalling the cars to modify them, there's no reason to believe they will remain out of compliance. So I don't think a Merc is a worse bet than any other Euro 6 diesel.

However, the more difficult question is whether the London ULEZ standards might be tightened further for diesels. Euro 6d (as opposed to plain Euro 6) means that the car met the Euro 6 standard under more realistic on-road test conditions. There's already a precedent for favouring these 6d cars, as they escape the 4% company car tax loading on all prior diesels. The argument could be made that only Euro 6d certified cars can be trusted to truly stick to the limits in actual use, and thus that all prior diesels should pay the charge. This could occur for two reasons; either the authorities could come under pressure due to poor urban air quality, and/or TfL could see it as an opportunity to raise more revenue, since they're essentially bankrupt with the reduction in commuters buying tickets.

The 'best' solution in terms of minimizing your exposure to future extra taxes on driving, as a Londoner, would be to look at whether an electric car would work for you - this also gets you out of the Congestion Charge until 2025.
Failing that, the second-best would be a plug-in hybrid petrol with some electric-only range
Next would be a petrol of a similar period, 2017-18.

If you get a Euro 6 diesel, you're fine at the moment and you might get 3-5 years driving without the restrictions being tightened any further. However, the above options would probably be somewhat safer going forwards. It's often surprising how little money you actually save a year on fuel from a diesel's better economy, although if you do a lot of miles, especially out of town, then a diesel could still be the best bet.
 

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