Pre Wash Debate.... Do you pre wash your Pre wash? What Say You??

[LeeJV]

Hey Guys.

I know in the past we've had a long debate about "Snow Foam" That topic had a large amount of different Views, so now winter is here I thought maybe its a good time to start another Little debate that could get everyone involved in. You never know, Maybe we could all learn some new tips along the way.

So here are some of my thoughts on the subject, I've tried pretty much every method that I know of, but would still like to know your personal methods too.

The general Rule before you start would be to rinse the loose dirt from the car down first, then use snow foam or your Citrus Prewash to tackle the remaining soiling.
I personally don't, as I feel that pressure washing down first can actually do more damage and find it less effective that Using Snow foam first. No matter How soiled the car is I will always use SF first before rinsing, I do this to soften the dirt before any form of rinsing, when rinsed away the foam will lift the dirt from surface, suspending it in foam thus making that PW process safer.

After my SF prewash, if I find some remaining soiling bonded to the panels, trims etc then use a Citrus APC diluted accordingly to the rubbers, plastics etc depending on the rate of bonded soiling, I do it this way as I feel its far less aggressive to the paint, saves wasting product/s (APC, TFR etc) that may not have been needed if the SF has removed it anyway. Now I've removed as much as I possibly can without even touching the car, Then set about with shampoo Via a foamer or cannon and My usual Multi Mitt Method.

In know I've covered every aspect of a full detail yet, as I thought this would be the best subject to start with before we move on.

I look forward to your views and methods soon.

Lee

 

[sirius9]

Quick pre wash spray with Koch Chemie Green Star, rinse down and its ready for a blast around town and the A & B roads....
All this whilst your snow foam still soaking on the car, before your meticulous 20 step technique. Then shift car into garage....

Live a little. Its Metal after all!

 

[chrisk2010]

I start with snow foam then a 5-10% of surfex HD this time of year depending on the level of soiling left behind after SF, i use the 40 degree nozzle on the pressure washer to try to be less aggressive. I’m usually left with half then bottle of SF so i coat the car a third time and go around the crevices and badges with the detailing brush then pressure wash off, i then add shampoo to the pressure wash bottle and apply before using the multi mitt method and use the reming half bottle again to rinse and keep the dirt suspended before the final pressure wash. Rinse with di water to encourage sheeting and use my favourite new tommy drying towel from clean your ride to deal drying the few drops of water on the car.

i have been reading that some mobile detailers put a capful of surfex in there sf cannon with their SF this time of year to help “boost” the SF. I tried this of the missus car yesterday as it hadn’t been clean for three months and was extremely heavily soiled and it worked quite well. I’m not a fan of mixing chemicals though as I’m sure if BH is wanted it in there they’d do it but I can’t complain too much as it did remove 80% of the soiling on the exterior coupled with a 10% APC it looked like i cleaned the a week ago.

 

[chrisk2010]

Sorry if it read a bit rushed replied while feeding the baby.

 

[LeeJV]

Quick pre wash spray with Koch Chemie Green Star, rinse down and its ready for a blast around town and the A & B roads....
All this whilst your snow foam still soaking on the car, before your meticulous 20 step technique. Then shift car into garage....

Live a little. Its Metal after all!

Lol
. I assume you at least shampoo it after then towel dry.
As for garage.. all my cars are parked on the driveway and washed pretty much weekly.

 

[LeeJV]

I start with snow foam then a 5-10% of surfex HD this time of year depending on the level of soiling left behind after SF, i use the 40 degree nozzle on the pressure washer to try to be less aggressive. I’m usually left with half then bottle of SF so i coat the car a third time and go around the crevices and badges with the detailing brush then pressure wash off, i then add shampoo to the pressure wash bottle and apply before using the multi mitt method and use the reming half bottle again to rinse and keep the dirt suspended before the final pressure wash. Rinse with di water to encourage sheeting and use my favourite new tommy drying towel from clean your ride to deal drying the few drops of water on the car.

i have been reading that some mobile detailers put a capful of surfex in there sf cannon with their SF this time of year to help “boost” the SF. I tried this of the missus car yesterday as it hadn’t been clean for three months and was extremely heavily soiled and it worked quite well. I’m not a fan of mixing chemicals though as I’m sure if BH is wanted it in there they’d do it but I can’t complain too much as it did remove 80% of the soiling on the exterior coupled with a 10% APC it looked like i cleaned the a week ago.

Good stuff buddy, I tend to out some shampoo into a spray bottle or APC for the intricate parts the go with a brush, but again does depend on level of soiling.
I too only use the 40° jet for rinse, and the 25/15 for the tyres and wheel wells.

Also saw that post about mixing the Surfex Hd with the foam, but it will have some degree of surfactant change
Also to add APC and Prewash foam do entirety different things so I prefer to use them separately


Kinda like APC then coating it with SF, again changes the surfactant, some like sonw don't, but this is the whole point of the thread... to hear other peoples opinions.


Doing a last maintenance detail on the GLE today before the new daily arrives next week so will do some testing mixing the 2 chemicals

 

[LeeJV]

Hey guys some testing today on 4 different methods.

1. BH auto foam at 4% pir
2 BH surfex HD diluted 10/1
3. Detail Driven Citrus APC diluted 10/1
4. BH auto foam 2%pir Mixed with 25% Surfex Hd.

So first up.
The front passenger wing before cleaning


This was treated with BH AF @4%. With No prior rinse., left to dwell for 5 mins then rinsed


Then the passenger side drivers door treated with 10/1 BH Surfex HD, then covered in BH AF at 4% PIR with No prior rinse,



Left to dwell for 5 mins then fully rinsed



The Rear passenger door was treated with 10/1 detail driven Citrus and covered in BH AF at 4% with No prior rinse



Left to dwell for 5 mins then fully rinsed

Hopefully you can see from the pics that all the panels are almost completely clean.. treated in 3 different ways but still having pretty much the same results without any contact wash.

Now the Boot. This was treated with BH Auto Foam at 2%PIR mixed with 25% Surfex HD with No prior Rinse


Then left to dwell for 5 Mins then rinsed away

 

[LeeJV]

So Now I did the entire Drivers side with BH AF at 2%PIR mIxed with 25% Detail Driven Citrus APC.
Again the same process as the other side, no prior rinse.



allowed to dwell for 5mins then fully rinsed


Drivers door and rear door applied with the same as above,










Both sides and rear now fully rinsed and dried with a Blower




So far after todays testing.. I can't see a visible difference between BH AF at 4% compared to the others treated with Citrus or Surfex HD and then covered in BH AF.

ON the drivers side and Boot there is a very small amount of Soiling left, but only visible when looked at very close up.
the panels that were mixed with Surfex HD left some product residue that was only noticeable when rinsing off.
Overall I think that Just treating with BH AF at 4% and rinsed would have been sufficient as I can't see any visible difference. So again this confirms for me that foaming prior to treating with any APC or Citrus would be enough in most cases, Unless the soiling had been allowed to sit on the panel for a long time.

If anyone wants me to try any other combo pls feel free to make some suggestions, If not, then I'll do some other product testing next weekend with some PH neutral SF compared in the same way, Or may be doing the wheels in 4 different Non contact methods.

Thanks again for reading
lee

 

[millc63]

Lots of detail (no pun intended) here. I personally always SF the car first, no rinsing down, then after the SF has had a bit of dwell time rinse off and straight in with a MF mitt and gtechniq shampoo. Couple of questions below:
1. Do you guys have any type of ceramic coating on your cars?
2. I haven't found a need for the APC after SF technique (maybe as mine is ceramic coated) what are the benefits? I find SF pretty much sorts it before shampoo application. I am using BH at about a 4 PIR every time though during the winter months.

Look forward to your thoughts

 

[Deleted member 65149]

A great bit of testing Lee, thanks. It's easy to see the advantage of a white car over black at this time of the year. I'm never able to get away with just a foam, rinse and blow-dry for a quick job.

 

[LeeJV]

Lots of detail (no pun intended) here. I personally always SF the car first, no rinsing down, then after the SF has had a bit of dwell time rinse off and straight in with a MF mitt and gtechniq shampoo. Couple of questions below:
1. Do you guys have any type of ceramic coating on your cars?
2. I haven't found a need for the APC after SF technique (maybe as mine is ceramic coated) what are the benefits? I find SF pretty much sorts it before shampoo application. I am using BH at about a 4 PIR every time though during the winter months.

Look forward to your thoughts

Hey buddy, thanks for your reply,

I do have ceramic coating on my other car, but on the GLE its just wowos Crystal sealant that was done over 6months ago., generally when cleaning a coated car you wouldn't need the PIR so High, 2% should be more than adequate. Aenso also make a fantastic SF for coated cars that actually maintains the coating by stopping it becoming clogged.
Another great foam that has recently come to market that I have been testing is Detail Driven SF, this is PH Neutral with a high foam, but cleans really well too.

Generally I only use Surfex HD on plastics and rubber, and Citrus-pre-wash for paint and wheels when needed if the SF hasn't worked well enough

 

[LeeJV]

A great bit of testing Lee, thanks. It's easy to see the advantage of a white car over black at this time of the year. I'm never able to get away with just a foam, rinse and blow-dry for a quick job.

Hey buddy, its takes a little practice, the biggest thing is working out what dilution ratios to use, but that varies massively depending on not only soiling, but what brand and product type your using.

Another major factor is what LSP you have , be it wax, sealant or a coating.

 

[sirius9]

Lol
. I assume you at least shampoo it after then towel dry.
As for garage.. all my cars are parked on the driveway and washed pretty much weekly.

Wash and dry after returning from blast around town and A/B roads.
Just a bit of pre wash so car looks a bit cleaner for the run. Less weight too. LOL.

 

[chrisk2010]

Great work Lee!

Although they had a similar results i think treating with an APC or citrus then covering with snow foam is a good idea and feels like the least aggressive method for heavily soiled cars as the SF would help draw the dirt away from the panels and carry it down in the foam.

As always though it's really judging the best course of action on the day as no two cars are the same depending on there level of maintenance and LSP protecting the car.

A car that is being maintained weekly you may feel like snow foam is enough or like my better half's car the weekend which was particularly grotty going a bit stronger with the addition of APC was the right call.

I applied 10% Surfex to the wheel arches and wheels before treating with SF and BH autowheel and to be honest as far as the wheels went they didn't require any more attention than usual i.e. brush for the barrels and wheel bolts, tyre brush and micro fibre pad for the wheel faces the grime came away without any fight which was surprising as the wheels were black with caked on grime.

For anyone reading this thread though thinking it's all a bit too much, what Lee has tested coupled with the multi mitt method which is a very quick method and far safer than the two bucket method. The whole thing for me takes at the very most 45 minutes at the most not including set up time.

- APC 10% in a sprayer for wheels and arches.
- SF dwell 5 -10 minutes
- Pressure wash
- Apply wheel cleaner (BH autowheel) and leave to dwell then agitate with brushes though a wheel cleaner may not need to be applied all time if the alloys are coated and maintenance is maintained regularly.
- 8 mitts in a bucket of warm water and shampoo.
- 1 mitt per panel means not having to keep dunking your hands in a second bucket and inspecting the mitt saves loads of time, i just chuck the used mitt into a clean bucket ready to be washed for next time.
- once done as said i like to use up the other half of the SF bottle to prevent anything reattaching the car and to encourage the dirt to run off.
- pressure wash clean.
- Dry. For drying i have bought a couple of amazing drying towels from "clean your ride" but i have also taken to filling up a bucket with DI water and using a large jug to pour over each panel which encourages sheeting and makes drying amazingly easy.

That's about it really, playing about with the ratios takes a bit of practice and i really judge it from car to car but it is becoming much easier.

To add background both car are coated with Wowo's crystal sealant but this time of year i top up washes with autoglym polar seal to reduce contact with the paintwork plus it super easy to apply and rinse off.

Though i did notice on my car this weekend protection was beginning to fade, probably because i clean my car more so i treated it to a couple of thin coats of BH double speed wax which although i don't like using in the summer it is great for winter protection.

Sorry if there's a bit much there i have been adding on and off while running around.

 

[C43AMG]

Hey buddy, its takes a little practice, the biggest thing is working out what dilution ratios to use, but that varies massively depending on not only soiling, but what brand and product type your using.

Another major factor is what LSP you have , be it wax, sealant or a coating.

My car is ceramic coated with Kamikaze. What is the best SF and what would the dilution be ?

 

[LeeJV]

My car is ceramic coated with Kamikaze. What is the best SF and what would the dilution be ?

Hey buddy, 1/2% PIR should be more than adequate for that, failing that look to aenso Snowfoam
Purposely developed for ceramic
I use that on mine. 30ml or product to 300ml water in a lance. This helps massively to keep the coating clean, aenso pure shampoo is also for coated paint as is KAMIKAZE anti ageing shampoo, designed to do a very similar thing. like Carpro reset. Kamikaze also make a coating topper for their coating too
All available direct from Ultimate Finish.

 

[LeeJV]

Great work Lee!

Although they had a similar results i think treating with an APC or citrus then covering with snow foam is a good idea and feels like the least aggressive method for heavily soiled cars as the SF would help draw the dirt away from the panels and carry it down in the foam.

As always though it's really judging the best course of action on the day as no two cars are the same depending on there level of maintenance and LSP protecting the car.

A car that is being maintained weekly you may feel like snow foam is enough or like my better half's car the weekend which was particularly grotty going a bit stronger with the addition of APC was the right call.

I applied 10% Surfex to the wheel arches and wheels before treating with SF and BH autowheel and to be honest as far as the wheels went they didn't require any more attention than usual i.e. brush for the barrels and wheel bolts, tyre brush and micro fibre pad for the wheel faces the grime came away without any fight which was surprising as the wheels were black with caked on grime.

For anyone reading this thread though thinking it's all a bit too much, what Lee has tested coupled with the multi mitt method which is a very quick method and far safer than the two bucket method. The whole thing for me takes at the very most 45 minutes at the most not including set up time.

- APC 10% in a sprayer for wheels and arches.
- SF dwell 5 -10 minutes
- Pressure wash
- Apply wheel cleaner (BH autowheel) and leave to dwell then agitate with brushes though a wheel cleaner may not need to be applied all time if the alloys are coated and maintenance is maintained regularly.
- 8 mitts in a bucket of warm water and shampoo.
- 1 mitt per panel means not having to keep dunking your hands in a second bucket and inspecting the mitt saves loads of time, i just chuck the used mitt into a clean bucket ready to be washed for next time.
- once done as said i like to use up the other half of the SF bottle to prevent anything reattaching the car and to encourage the dirt to run off.
- pressure wash clean.
- Dry. For drying i have bought a couple of amazing drying towels from "clean your ride" but i have also taken to filling up a bucket with DI water and using a large jug to pour over each panel which encourages sheeting and makes drying amazingly easy.

That's about it really, playing about with the ratios takes a bit of practice and i really judge it from car to car but it is becoming much easier.

To add background both car are coated with Wowo's crystal sealant but this time of year i top up washes with autoglym polar seal to reduce contact with the paintwork plus it super easy to apply and rinse off.

Though i did notice on my car this weekend protection was beginning to fade, probably because i clean my car more so i treated it to a couple of thin coats of BH double speed wax which although i don't like using in the summer it is great for winter protection.

Sorry if there's a bit much there i have been adding on and off while running around.

Great work Chris, seems that we both work in a similar way. I too use my DI vessel, and decant the water into a watering can with a short length of hose attached to the end, this makes it easier reaching over the roof and bonnet. Also works great when doing a complete touchless wash, as you shouldn't really use a drying towel unless its had a full shampoo.

For maintaining wax or sealed cars this time of year I have been using Koche Chemi PW. It's a concentrated wax. Mix 30ml into 1 ltr water and spray onto the paint via a pump spray or Foamer, leave to dwell and rinse off., it's not a big beader, more of a sheater, but works really well. I've been trying it out on my work van and the GLE over the last month.

 

[chic0821]

My car has Gtechniq ceramic coating & the wheels have Gtechniq C5 wheel armour. Everyone has their own method which works, so here is mine. Firstly I power wash the whole car from a distance, basically just to wet it & remove any standing dirt. I then snowfoam the wheels & arches then clean the wheels thoroughly using wheel woolies getting into the barrels, then power wash with a pretty intense spray, especially the arches until the water runs clear. I bought a 90 degree sprayer from Lidl which fits my Karcher for the arches & its really powerful (and cheap). I then snowfoam the car, let it dwell then power wash off. I then use another type of snowfoam with a cherry fragrance (not sure the nice smell helps, but hey ho) which I then clean off with a type of wash mitt with noodles, then power wash again. I then use a garden hose with soaker head which more or less leaves the car with hardly any water on it due to the ceramic coating. I then spray on Meguirs "last touch" detail spray onto the wet paintwork & dry off with a microfibre drying towel, which leaves the car sparkling. It takes less than 10 mins to do the whole car with the "last touch"

 

[chrisk2010]

Great work Chris, seems that we both work in a similar way. I too use my DI vessel, and decant the water into a watering can with a short length of hose attached to the end, this makes it easier reaching over the roof and bonnet. Also works great when doing a complete touchless wash, as you shouldn't really use a drying towel unless its had a full shampoo.

For maintaining wax or sealed cars this time of year I have been using Koche Chemi PW. It's a concentrated wax. Mix 30ml into 1 ltr water and spray onto the paint via a pump spray or Foamer, leave to dwell and rinse off., it's not a big beader, more of a sheater, but works really well. I've been trying it out on my work van and the GLE over the last month.

I like the sound of the Koche Chemie stuff but i pick the AG polar seal up when it drop to a tenner on Amazon, ashamedly i have a few bottles to work through first.

My car has Gtechniq ceramic coating & the wheels have Gtechniq C5 wheel armour. Everyone has their own method which works, so here is mine. Firstly I power wash the whole car from a distance, basically just to wet it & remove any standing dirt. I then snowfoam the wheels & arches then clean the wheels thoroughly using wheel woolies getting into the barrels, then power wash with a pretty intense spray, especially the arches until the water runs clear. I bought a 90 degree sprayer from Lidl which fits my Karcher for the arches & its really powerful (and cheap). I then snowfoam the car, let it dwell then power wash off. I then use another type of snowfoam with a cherry fragrance (not sure the nice smell helps, but hey ho) which I then clean off with a type of wash mitt with noodles, then power wash again. I then use a garden hose with soaker head which more or less leaves the car with hardly any water on it due to the ceramic coating. I then spray on Meguirs "last touch" detail spray onto the wet paintwork & dry off with a microfibre drying towel, which leaves the car sparkling. It takes less than 10 mins to do the whole car with the "last touch"

Sounds great and your right everyone is a bit different so it's great to read peoples different techniques to try out. There's a debate on a few forums at the moment about applying pre-washes to wet panels some arguing that the pre-wash whether it be citrus, SF, or APC needs to bite into and cling to the dirt on a dry panel rather than run off a wet one to get the best from the prewash.

Others argue that it is better to pressure wash of the majority so the pre-wash doesn't have to work as hard to penetrate the grime.

Personally with regards to the above i think a lot of the argument is dependent of the level of protection on the car. You have a good ceramic coating on there so the car will benefit from a pre-wash wash as the grime i don't suppose would cling as well as a car with lesser protection.

That's what i love about detailing, there isn't one rule or one way to do things which is why everyone has there own technique adjusted to what works best for them. It's difficult when you get a someone that says "No your doing it wrong" because i may not be it's just what works for them doesn't work for me or vice versa.

You could get two cars exactly the same and polishing will react differently from one to the next maybe microfibre cutting pad will work great one one but clog up on the other and need a couple of passes with a foam pad to clean the panel up before being able to use the MF pad and it's the same through each stage of a detail. Do you go in hard on dirty car with a strong ratio or lower the dilution to 2% like Lee has done because it's all that is needed and help extend the longevity of the LSP. Detailing to me feels like tunning in an analogue radio with a little tweek here and a little tweek there to get the that clear radio station.

Went a bit off topic a bit at the end there lol.

 

[C43AMG]

KAMIKAZE anti ageing shampoo, designed to do a very similar thing. like Carpro reset. Kamikaze also make a coating topper for their coating too

Many thanks. I have the Kamikaze Shampoo and the Kamikaze Topcoat