Prince 2

[Tan]

Hi

I am looking at studying Prince 2, is anyone here Prince qualified and can you recommend any books / course providers.

Thanks

Tan

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I have both levels of PRINCE2 qualification. Went on a four-day intensive course last year. Will dig out my stuff to recall who it was.

From what I hear they're all pretty much of a muchness. The courses are all focussed on getting you through the exam rather than really teaching you that much about project management.

I suspect a self-study route might be much tougher than going on a course. Good tutors have a good feel for what might come up and how best to answer them - that's what you're paying for really.

When I studied for my Chartered Institute of Bankers exams I self-studied the first four or five modules was a hard slog. When I tried one of the tutor weekend sessions, you learn and revise in one hit. Much much less effort, and better results too!! Well worth it.

 

[pammy]

Parity cover Prince2 material . Courses are good but can be so affected by the people on them as well as the quality of the instructors.

There's a range of books on the subject available from all the usual sources, Amazon included currently selling the "Bible" for £30

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0113308558/026-4297014-7516406

 

[sym]

Parity cover Prince2 material . Courses are good but can be so affected by the people on them as well as the quality of the instructors.

Sounds like you've had the same instructor from Parity that I had !

S.

 

[scotth_uk]

Send me a PM. I can help.

 

[BonzoDog]

I have studied Prince but like all of these processes it lacks any kind of practicality related to real world. For example for testing, it more or less says, do testing. As this usually takes around 25% of a projects and can take up to 50% of a project (another discussion) this is dismissive ness and uselessness in the extreme.
My problem with all of these systems is that it is purely administration best carried out by a project office and has little to do with project management. When you start to use one of these systems you can lose track of what you are really trying to do and instead became a paper engineering project. The impact on overhead is colossal.
In short while I think these systems have a role, they are too often abused and there is a variety of reasons behind this.
Otherwise also consider the American equivalent PMI.

 

[pammy]

I agree this can and does happen - but it's mainly because the users don't have the ability to scale the processes and supporting beaurocracy to the size/complexity of the project.

Some projects demand more testing than others - it all depends, but this is where Prince 2 is supposed to help because it is scalable. Sadly people become practitioners and then apply it in full to evry project them come in contact with and then it does become a beaurocratic nightmare.

 

[BonzoDog]

Methodology- Spendology

Sadly people become practitioners and then apply it in full to evry project them come in contact with and then it does become a beaurocratic nightmare.

Before these methodologies we had many problems in consistency of approach such that management could never understand what was going on, nor could they believe estimates for time, scope and costs because most of us didn't have a clue.
While methodologies can solve the rpoblem, they have, in the cases that I have observed added such an overbearing layer that the real work is now only a minor part of the project.
Amongst other things, I review projects for my employer and am aghast at prices, timescales and lack of ambition purely driven by the process. When was running my own small company I could have at times run most of these for one tenth the price. At this point you might say that is not credible. How about a building a new report in an established system which means tweaking an old report and modifying some queries. 250K Euros? And we are not the only company.
Actually I must be careful I don't get on a roll. Any suggestions as to an IT or management magazine where I can have my rant greatly appreciated.

 

[Kamisuma]

Before these methodologies we had many problems in consistency of approach such that management could never understand what was going on, nor could they believe estimates for time, scope and costs because most of us didn't have a clue.
............

The problem with such methodologies is that they are treated as absolutes, rather than as a set of guidelines or a framework.
While I advocate the use of structured methods, most can become unwieldy and cumbersome. If the practitioners do their jobs properly, then instead of producing every piece of paperwork that the base methodology states, the practioner will agree the documentation requirements for a particular project, and ensure that this is agreed and communicated to ALL parties.
By analogy: if all documentation for a methodology equates to the alphabet,
but only A, B, C, G, H, M, P, X, Y and Z are essential for success, then only these would be produced; the remainder may be nice to have, but it is difficult to justify their production. Many of the Big consultancies use this as an excuse for their costs, usually stating that all steps in the methodology are essential which is extremely rare.
This is one of the bases of Agile methodologies, but unfortunately, Agile would have significant difficulties in being implemented in most organisations because of the attitude and expectation of staff, and the methods to which they have become accustomed.
Government and ex Public Sector organisations are a prime example, most of which demand Prince 2 as a mandatory skill.

 

[BonzoDog]

Misuse of Methodologies

This is one of the bases of Agile methodologies, but unfortunately, Agile would have significant difficulties in being implemented in most organisations because of the attitude and expectation of staff, and the methods to which they have become accustomed.
QUOTE]
There is a risk that I might be boring. Many of our people are ex-consultants, me being the rolled up sleeves exception.
We slavishly follow the same path on every project in a serial fashion. It is such that if we were to request a cup of tea, it would take one year, cost upwards of 1M, have 3000 pages of perfectly integrated documentation, totally justifying its style. At the end we would have descoped the tea and the water would be cold.
Agile has been suggested along with several other approaches in order to break the stranglehold.

 

[sparkyspost]

keyskills do a Computer Based Training (cd) for the Foundation and now have another that also covers the practicioner.

The Foundation is a simple multiple choice exam and doing the cd will help you pass it no problems.

The practicioner however is more difficult and success comes from preparation. For example knowing where Risk Management is involved and when to update / review the risk log etc. Knowing these sections and preparing 'cheat sheets' will help no end.
The prac. exam is 3 hours open book.

The OGC sell the Prince2 handbook and associated literature.
http://www.ogc.gov.uk/sdtoolkit/ref...idance/programmeprojectmanagement/msproj.html

As previously mentioned it may be worth going down the PMI route instead as Prince2 is a UK recognised method, and PMI is a US based.

There are other guides etc that may be of use if it is general project management, like the PM for Dummies book (if you're familiar with these) is not too bad a read.

Or are you just deciding on some training?

Cheers

Mark.

 

[Alps]

passed my prince 2 last month, only just got the cert, they [provided the book on the course, i`ll find out what it was called an by whom, cant say it was the best book, as only helped after highlighting the important stuff and marking all the chapter (for the exam)

 

[saorbust]

I have studied Prince but like all of these processes it lacks any kind of practicality related to real world. For example for testing, it more or less says, do testing. As this usually takes around 25% of a projects and can take up to 50% of a project (another discussion) this is dismissive ness and uselessness in the extreme.
My problem with all of these systems is that it is purely administration best carried out by a project office and has little to do with project management. When you start to use one of these systems you can lose track of what you are really trying to do and instead became a paper engineering project. The impact on overhead is colossal.
In short while I think these systems have a role, they are too often abused and there is a variety of reasons behind this.
Otherwise also consider the American equivalent PMI.

Totally agree. I thus joined the PMI instead and have been certified this route. I also have the Prince2 badge as well. Remember context - Prince2 has been designed to cover all manner of scenario's and as with all these things - the mastery is in the appropriate application of the framework.

 

[scotth_uk]

This was sent out by the client I work for:

Hello !

Here's another note providing information on project management at [client name here], this time covering project management training and certification.

Details of how to subscribe/unsubscribe from this mailing list are included at the end of the email.

If you are facing a choice of project management training or certification in the future then we recommend that you choose PMI rather than a more prescriptive methodology such as PRINCE2. We recommend a similar approach when recruiting project managers, internally or externally. Project Management certification is definitely an advantage but PMI is more relevant than PRINCE2. We recommend dropping references to PRINCE2 in advertisements.

The more rounded approach to project management training offered by PMI through their Body of Knowledge is a much more appropriate fit for people "getting projects done in xxxx". PMI offer two levels of training and qualification which are relevant to most xxxxx project managers :

Project Management Professional - aimed at experienced career project managers
Certified Associate in Project Management - aimed at less experienced project staff


There is no suggestion that PRINCE2 is bad, just that it should not be a first choice for working at xxxxx. The extract below from the FAQ on the PRINCE2 website backs this up and recognises the value of PMI based training...

How is PRINCE2 different from other qualifications?
PRINCE2 is different from other project management qualifications as it provides only a structured framework, which can be tailored and scaled in order to run a project - it does not deal with the softer skills involved in being a project manager, which are covered by other qualifications.

Is PRINCE2 Compatible with other qualifications?
PRINCE2 is compatible with all other project management qualifications as it provides the technical structure of the framework for the project, which will complement the softer skills learnt on other qualifications.

The most popular project management qualification worldwide is the PMI PMP. PMI (US Project Management Institute (www.pmi.org), APM (UK Association of Project Management - www.apm.org.uk) and IPMA (International Project Management Association - www.ipma.ch) all have detailed bodies of knowledge that explain the wider skills needed for a project manager.

 

[Koolvin]

Sounds like you've had the same instructor from Parity that I had !

S.

I qualified with parity also...

 

[sym]

This was sent out by the client I work for:

Hello !

Here's another note providing information on project management at [client name here], this time covering project management training and certification.

Details of how to subscribe/unsubscribe from this mailing list are included at the end of the email.

If you are facing a choice of project management training or certification in the future then we recommend that you choose PMI rather than a more prescriptive methodology such as PRINCE2. We recommend a similar approach when recruiting project managers, internally or externally. Project Management certification is definitely an advantage but PMI is more relevant than PRINCE2. We recommend dropping references to PRINCE2 in advertisements.

The more rounded approach to project management training offered by PMI through their Body of Knowledge is a much more appropriate fit for people "getting projects done in xxxx". PMI offer two levels of training and qualification which are relevant to most xxxxx project managers :

Project Management Professional - aimed at experienced career project managers
Certified Associate in Project Management - aimed at less experienced project staff


There is no suggestion that PRINCE2 is bad, just that it should not be a first choice for working at xxxxx. The extract below from the FAQ on the PRINCE2 website backs this up and recognises the value of PMI based training...

How is PRINCE2 different from other qualifications?
PRINCE2 is different from other project management qualifications as it provides only a structured framework, which can be tailored and scaled in order to run a project - it does not deal with the softer skills involved in being a project manager, which are covered by other qualifications.

Is PRINCE2 Compatible with other qualifications?
PRINCE2 is compatible with all other project management qualifications as it provides the technical structure of the framework for the project, which will complement the softer skills learnt on other qualifications.

The most popular project management qualification worldwide is the PMI PMP. PMI (US Project Management Institute (www.pmi.org), APM (UK Association of Project Management - www.apm.org.uk) and IPMA (International Project Management Association - www.ipma.ch) all have detailed bodies of knowledge that explain the wider skills needed for a project manager.

Our internal system is based on PMBOK as well ... although PRINCE2 seems to be the only one that many seem to have heard of !

Shall we talk ITIL next ? <runs for cover ......>

 

[Howard]

When i read the title of this thread , i thought it was about his new album ....

runs and hides ........

 

[Ian B Walker]

When i read the title of this thread , i thought it was about his new album ....

runs and hides ........

You are not alone there mate

 

[scotth_uk]

I'm always on the fence about the PM certs. I personally don't think that I need them to do my job and I seem to be able to convince others of that fairly quickly.

Interview tonight after 7pm for a New York job - wish me luck. Hopefully a short 3-6 month thing - big project too - business continuity implementation for one of the financial information providers in North America.

 

[sym]

Interview tonight after 7pm for a New York job - wish me luck.

GOOD LUCK !!