Problem with dealer I recently purchased SL500 from

[aka$h]

I bought my SL500 Silver Arrow about a month ago, now the list of problems seems to just keep growing.

I bought the car on ebay, but the seller is not listed as a business seller. But from their feedback they are a car dealer:

eBay Feedback profile for j4yll

The seller also gave me a proper used car invoice, and took payment via a debit card.

Since searching their name on google I found this:

Courtyard Cars | Quality Used Cars in Berkswell | Homepage

So the seller is clearly a dealer.

The car was described as being in good condition.

When I went to buy the car, he seller suddenly realised that the drivers seat didnt move. He said it does occasionally work, and it was just a switch. I got quoted £145 for the switch from MB and my indy quoted £55 to fit. The seller agreed to discount the price by £200.

About an hour after I collected the car, I noticed the A\C wasnt working, but thought it would just be a £50 re-gas job. Took it to Kwik-fit and it has a leak. Most likely a condensor, £360 for the part and labour to fit.

Another issue is the heating, when the vehicle is stationary there is no hot air. I popped in at Jay's on the way back home the day I collected it and his technician had told me there is a fault on both the recirculating pump and duo valve. They cleared the faults, but when my indy in london checked the faults had come back. Just the cost of the parts is over £300.

Before ordering a new switch for the drivers seat, the indy wanted to check the control module was OK, and swapped the 2 modules over. The problem is with the module as the seat worked with the other module. The price of a replacement module is £350 + labour to fit.

I sent the seller a message today:
Hi,

Im yet to receive a log book for the SL, Im not sure if you have sent it on, or are still waiting for it.

It seems the car has a number or issues. The heating does not function correctly when the vehicle is stationary. A diagnosis check has shown the fault to be a faulty recirculating pump and duo valve. I have obtained a print out showing this.

The air conditioning on the car wasnt working when I collected it from you. I thought it would cost £50 to have regassed by kwik-fit and I wasnt too fussed. Having taken it to kwik-fit today, their system check has shown there is a leak. I will now have to take it elsewhere to have it repaired, as kwik fit dont fix leaks.

Ive no idea at this stage the total cost of these repairs. Had it have been just the £50 re-gas Id not have bothered you with it. but it seems it is now mounting up.

Response:
Hello, the V5 is on it's way to you.


Regards

My reply:

What do you propose to do with regard to the required repairs?

It's not a few pounds, else I'd have sorted it.

His response:
I'm sorry it's a eBay auction sale sold as seen, you viewed the car twice, had every chance to do what ever checks, I pointed out the seat which I noticed to be faulty and agreed on £200 discount which most people would not of done and now it's been now nearly a month since the auction end.

Regards

Now where do I stand?

 

[mercboiuk]

If it said in the ebay ad that it will be "Sold As Seen", and no warranty was offer/obtained, I guess you're on your own

From the seller's POV, as the car was driven away and nothing said then and there, he's not to know these problems haven't occurred post-sale.
Whether he sold you the car knowing of these problems is purely a moral issue.

I'm sure many of us can sympathise with you, aka$h, after being "had" on ebay.

Seeing as he's a dealer, I'm not sure if there would be any come back because of this. I'm sure a more informed MBClub bod will be able to clarify this.

Finally, I'm sure ebay would be more than interested to hear that a dealer is using their website under the premise of an individual, too

Sorry it's not great news, and I hope all you issues are resolved, and you can start thoroughly enjoying you lovely new motor!

Darren

 

[ringway]

If you can nail him down to being a dealer you have a chance, because IIRC all dealers have to offer a 3, month warranty with a used vehicle.


HTH.

Paul.

 

[Sonny Burnett]

If you can nail him down to being a dealer you have a chance, because IIRC all dealers have to offer a 3, month warranty with a used vehicle.


HTH.

Paul.

this is the reason why he sold it through ebay he can claim he sold it privately but then AKash does have the receipt of purchase. see your lawyer tell him the situation and you will get a answer, its probably the only thing you can do, if you find you have a case take him to small claims, my mum just had a similar issue and actually sued bathstore, it went to court and the judge saw in her favour, don't back down if you know your in the right.

sorry to hear about your problems, id love to drive a SL silver arrow

 

[Smarties]

I asked a similiar question on this forum a week or so ago( http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/general-discussion/90186-ebay-trade-sellers-law.html). I think we can say that if you bought it on an auction basis, you could be on your own, as auction terms are pretty much 'as is'. However, if it was sold as a fixed price 'Buy it Now', it may be perceived as a retail sale. How did you buy it, and would you consider the price you paid to be at the top end, i.e, retail, or a lower price closer to trade/auction value? Sorry to hear of your problems, what a fantastic car though.

 

[Charles Morgan]

If the car was sold by a dealer then it has to be of satisfactory quality. If it has been described as having the things like air-conditioning etc then they have to work.

However, I have no idea about what rights you have in an auction sale over ebay. You could try Consumer Direct, who were helpful to me on a recent issue. Or if the quantum is big enough, go to a lawyer.

Best of luck.

 

[219]

In law ( Scots Law , at least - but I presume English Law is no different ) phrases such as 'sold as seen' are completely meaningless and will be disregarded in court .

Was the used car invoice from his company or from him personally - if from the company then clearly you bought from a dealer and not a private sale . Did your payment clear into his company account ?

If either of the above are true , then you may have proof you bought from a dealer .

I 'think' only cars sold for 'spares or repairs' by a dealer are excluded from the requirement to have a warranty ; stating that it is a 'trade sale' or 'sold as seen' makes no difference .

If he won't agree , try the trading standards office covering his area and see what they say .

 

[Mudster]

I just searched the seller ebay profile and there is no completed listing for a sale of a Mercedes SL500. I assume you found it on eBay (on what is a private non business account) and have arranged the purchase outside of eBay.

That's a private sale in my mind.

The contents of the eBay advert are now wholly irrelevant as the sale was clearly not completed through that medium.

You visited the dealer, inspected the car, paid and drove off.

No distance selling regulations exist in this sale.

You had every opportunity to look at the vehicle and assess anything you weren't happy about. The problems you have since discovered are what would reasonably described as failures in keeping with a vehicle of that age.

I feel people have an unrealistic expectation of the condition of used vehicles (I'm sure Jay will have an opinion on this!)

So in summary, you've bought a car listed on a private eBay account (at what I assume is a private non forecourt price), aided the seller in circumventing eBay fees by buying outside of eBay. At no point did the seller profess to be a dealer.

Now you've found some (minor) issues with the car you want full redress on the seller as a motor trader offering full warranty on the vehicle.

You're on thin ice in my mind.

As suggested above, if you've been issued paperwork in a company name then you have more leverage.

The fact payment was taken by debit card is irrelevant, I run a business and can take personal transaction through my business if I so wish, it's simply a payment medium.

I think everything about this issue revolves around the invoice you've been issued.

 

[Charles Morgan]

Mudster - if the person making the sale is a dealer, all the facts you cite are irrelevant. The Sale of Goods Act applies. Whether the problems are reasonable for a car of that age is one issue, but if they are described in an advert (which an Ebay Listing most certainly is) and the trade seller (which this person may be) does nothing to change the description prior to purchase, then the facts of the sale are absolutely no different to those of any purchase of a secondhand car from a dealer anywhere in the UK, which is governed by the Sale of Goods Act.

The issue here is whether the vehicle is of merchantable quality and was correctly described, no more, no less. On that Akash should take advice.

Dealers selling as private customers are trying to get round their obligations to customers under the Sale of Goods Act by passing themselves off as private individuals. That is a matter for Trading Standards.

A link to DirectGov on your rights regarding Car Purchases.

 

[Mudster]

The thing is, unless it was actually bought through eBay - the listing no longer exists, unless Akash had the presence of mind to print out the entire advert before it was deleted. So proving the description could be contentious.

Question:-

Can a car dealer not own a car privately and sell a car privately? Say his own vehicle?

Or by being a dealer is it defaulted by law that any vehcile bought from him is a business sale? (no matter if it's his private vehicle or not)

Consider the following question. Lets say Jay decided to part with his Widebody (which he'd never dream of - but humour me). It is a privately owned personal vehicle.

Does the fact that Jay is a motor trader mean He cannot sell that car in any other way that a trade sale with full warranty? If the answer to that is yes, under what law is that the requirement?

 

[neilrr]

The seller also gave me a proper used car invoice, and took payment via a debit card.

Not many private individuals are set up to do this.

He's a dealer.

 

[Charles Morgan]

Mudster - good questions. I don't know the answer to that, and it is probably a rather recondite part of the law, but I suspect as always the facts would speak for themselves. But if all sales of cars by dealers were treated as trade, I suspect the inconvenience to genuine honest car dealers of such a treatment would be quite minimal. In the same way as a banker I was restricted from buying and selling shares freely, I think at worst such a treatment of a car dealer would be one of those things you just have to lump, a minor inconvenience to prevent the bad guys giving the good guys a bad reputation.

 

[Mudster]

Not many private individuals are set up to do this.

He's a dealer.

Any business owner can have that facility.

I sold a car, I have card facilities through my business as a natural stone importer.

I can take a personal transaction through those card facilities which is not fraudulent, underhand or in any way odd.

That makes me a car trader?...certainly not.

I'm not being contentious in this thread for any other reason than providing a balanced point of view and I'm actually very interested in the actual legal position of this sale. I have a feeling it is not as clear cut as some you of may assume.

 

[aka$h]

Ive bought and sold cars to and from priavte individuals in the past and have never even called any of them. I wouldnt dream of kicking up a fuss. Thats not to say Ive told a buyer to get lost, I spent over a grand fixing issues on an s-class a couple of years back. But thats probably my nature, as opposed to legal obligation.

Back to the matter at hand, I did buy the car on ebay Ive just not left feedback as yet.
Mercedes Benz SL 500 SILVER ARROW VERY RARE CAR on eBay (end time 22-May-10 17:40:20 BST)

The top of the invoice is from Courtyard Cards.

The things ive not mentioned it:
The side sill do not illuminate
the 2 front tyres are the wrong size
the rear tyres are perished and need to be replaced
The front bumper has a split
lacquer is peeling on both front wings

However I understand its an old car and you expect some niggles, and I will not be persuing the list above.

But I feel the heating, air con and seat adjustment are expected to work.

 

[Mudster]

You've won an auction, not a classified sale and that changes thing dramatically.

It's basically the same deal as going to any major car auction and buying a car, no warranty implied or given.

At the point of collecting the vehicle, you had the right to reject "not as described" but as you didn't then you're stuffed.

Also, the advert doesn't actually state anywhere the vehicle has air conditioning, so the fact it isn't working is a bit difficult to take up.

Buyer beware I'm afraid.

 

[manalishi]

If the receipt is on dealer paperwork and the V5 does not show this individual as the previous owner - it's 100% NOT a private sale. And the dealer has responsibilities.

FWIW, I bought a car from an Ebay dealer (Bygone Mercedes) and that was sold as a private sale, but the advert said as much, and the car was registered in his wife's name. I was happy to accept it (and yes, like 99.9% of MBs over 10 years old there are age-related niggles like those akash is having).

I have card facilities through my business as a natural stone importer.

I can take a personal transaction through those card facilities which is not fraudulent, underhand or in any way odd.

OK, I'm new to trading on cards with my business, but I'm 99.9% sure that I had to tell my bank what the nature of my business transactions were going to be when I applied. And my gut feel is that there's some bit of the Ts&Cs saying I shouldn't use the facility outside of the nature of that business without authorisation. (Genuine interest on this - not just picking an argument!)

 

[aka$h]

Oh and the ebay listing says it has "6-speaker Bose Accoustimass sound system", which it turns out isnt true as it has rear seats.

 

[jonnyboy]

But what I don't understand is that you viewed the car twice??

When I view a car I check everything works. This seems like a well-used example of a very rare very desirable car at a very keen price. Dealer or not, he let it go cheap (imho) because it had faults, which were easily recogniseable on a viewing/test drive. If it was a head gasket/faulty gearbox or something else major yet "subtle" on a viewing, then its easily missed.

All that said you have a sales invoice. If it doesn't say "trade sale sold as seen no warranty implied" (which IIRC isn't actually legal, but I'm sure a judge would point to it) then you should have some recourse.

Forum members, how much would an immaculate '01 plate Silver Arrow with 90k cost on a forecourt?

 

[219]

I just had a look at the advert and did not see any reference to the seller being a trader .

Is it not the same with eBay as with a newspaper advertisement that a motor trader is obliged to disclose his status ?

I think Mudster's point about a private sale would be fine if the trader can show that he bought and actually ran the car himself for a period of time ( the test I would apply there is whether he actually registered the car to himself as opposed to returning the trader's part of the V5 to DVLA ) .

If the seller only took this car in recently and never registered it to himself then it is clearly a trade deal and not a private one .

 

[jonnyboy]

Oh and the ebay listing says it has "6-speaker Bose Accoustimass sound system", which it turns out isnt true as it has rear seats.

Easily checkable on a viewing/VIN check.

Don't get me wrong, I hate overdescribed cars, but you have to have some perspective.