R230 SL500 Illegal Tinted Windows

[markhap]

Been issued, this Easter weekend, with a £30 Fixed Penalty Notice for having insufficient transmisison of light on my 2002 R230 SL500 side windows.

If I'd had them tinted I could understand it, but the thing is that I bought the car from an MB main dealer in 2007 and haven't modifiied it in any way, other than changing the tax disc holder, so the windows are 'as supplied'. They're also not an after market film over the original glass they are, what I assumed to be, factory fit glass and the officers confirmed this. I had a discussion, with the officers that stopped me, about having been supplied by MB with what is essentially an illegal vehicle and they said that they'd stopped a Mini recently with the same issue that the car was factory supplied but was illegal and that I should take it up with the dealer; which I intend to do. I also asked why it kept passing it's MOT but the amount of light isn't checked, just that the glass is 'present'.

Has anyone else had the same problem with an R230 of this vintage ? Anyone have any knwoeledge of whether this glass was an option on the car in 2002 ?

Any advice about how to approach the dealer ? I think that the glass has to be replaced as I can't knowingly drive an illegal vehicle, as safety concerns and the prospect of invalidating my insurance doesn't appeal. I don't think I should have to bear the cost of the replacement of the glass though. Views ?

 

[219]

I'm not sure that it IS illegal .

Clarification will be needed , but my 'impression' is that if the glass itself is tinted then the transmission limit does not apply , it only applies to aftermarket films applied to the glass .

I may be wrong , but I think this is the case .

Wouldn't be the first time some police officers don't fully know the law they are trying to enforce .

 

[flango]

I presume the officers checked the light transmission using a tintman device or similar If so what was the percentage transmission?

The limit is that the glass must have a minimum 70% transmission, however its worth noting clear class only has an 86% transmission factor so if you want to tint your front windows you don't have a lot to play with.

In your case if it is the glass and not a film then the supplying dealer is liable as they have to supply a car which is fit for purpose for UK roads and complies with UK road traffic law this one is clearly not. Precidence on this was set in East yorkshire with a case against the local Land Rover dealer for supplying a Range Rover sport with illegal front windows.

Hope that helps but I would be straight back to the dealer asking them to replace with standard glass which they have an obligation to do.

 

[flango]

I'm not sure that it IS illegal .

Clarification will be needed , but my 'impression' is that if the glass itself is tinted then the transmission limit does not apply , it only applies to aftermarket films applied to the glass .

I may be wrong , but I think this is the case .

Wouldn't be the first time some police officers don't fully know the law they are trying to enforce .

Edited due to my misunderstanding of regs, SWMBO to clarify will post back

 

[moonloops]

supplying dealer is liable as they have to supply a car which is fit for purpose for UK roads

It probably was within the law at the time of purchase.. isn't the tint law a recent thing ?

 

[flango]

It probably was within the law at the time of purchase.. isn't the tint law a recent thing ?

Sorry yes I missed the fact its a 2002 car in the OP, will talk to the guru and post back

 

[flango]

During the early part of 2004, Section 32 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations were amended to include “Window Tint Films”, where such materials attached to the glass are capable of reducing the Visible Light Transmission of forward windows to below prescribed levels.

There has also been a great deal of debate in recent years about the legitimacy of window tints that do not obscure the vision of the driver. A clear case has been argued that road-safe window tints do not actually conflict with existing regulations. The Department for Transport have argued however that Section 32 was always intended to cover materials attached to the glass, despite the fact that no mention of this is made in the Regulation itself.

Consequently and in order to clarify the situation, the Government have finally decided to up-date the Regulations to specifically include Tinted Films since, in the view of the Police and the Department for Transport, this is the only way in which the problems of excessive tints can be remedied.

After much discussion, a sympathetic Enforcement Policy has been agreed between the Department for Transport and The Glass and Glazing Federation to ensure that all vehicle owners that have had tints applied in the past may be dealt with fairly. This applies in particular where the infringement is with respect to tints that do not pose a significant threat to Road Safety, despite being in contravention with the amended Regulations.

In short "Pontoneer" is quite correct (apologies Derek I thought you were wrong) If it is the glass thats tinted and the car is manufactured before 2004 , then no offence has been committed and you should ask for the ticket to be quashed. The window tinting regulations do only apply to films and have now being ammended accordingly.

( The Range Rover case I refered to, apparently the dealer had changed the 2 front windows to match the rears but as the car was manufacturered after 2004 they were in contravention and liable for the change)

 

[jonnyboy]

as a side issue in a service station off the m1 on thursday i saw a beaten up old honda/toyota/whatever with black as night rear tints. the front windows were also tinted the same but stopped short of the leading edge ie there was a triangle of clear glass, presumeably so it was possible to use the mirrors, it was that dark. Crazy.
Drivers door opened, I expected a baseball capped, burberry and sovereign ringed drugdealing type to get out. Family man, chinese or similar, in a suit, in his 40's.

Surreal. A far better use of the Rozzers' time, than the OP here

 

[markhap]

Thanks for all the posts.

The police did use a tool to test the windows, assume that was a 'tintman', and, staggeringly, they recorded that only 21% of light was allowed to pass through. They even commented that they were surprised it was so low as the windows 'didn't look that dark'. I've had the vehicle for nearly 3 years and the windows were something which I had to adapt to, especially in night time driving conditions, in the first few weeks of ownership. I don't give them a second thought now and never considered them a safety risk, but it's clear to me, at least now, that at worst they are and at best I would be knowingly selling an illegal vehicle on resale.

Given that they're only 21% I feel that I've actually been lucky as I could have been prosecuted:

"Below 30% Visible Light Transmission (Excessively dark window tints) The driver or owner of such a vehicle may be issued with an immediate Prohibition Notice and immediately prevented from driving the vehicle on public roads until the tints have been removed and either a Police Officer or Vehicle Inspectorate Office confirms that the glass has been restored to a compliant condition. It is also possible depending on the severity of the offence, that the owner may be prosecuted for driving a vehicle in a non-roadworthy or even dangerous condition with the potential for penalty points and a fine.
Driving such a vehicle on public roads before the tints have been removed and before a Prohibition notice has been lifted will be a serious offence and the owner or driver is likely to be prosecuted."

So, the information above makes my case clearer with MB UK, I think. They sold me a vehicle that was clearly illegal when I bought it in 2007. Having said that, I can't imagine, having dealt with them before, that this will be an easy resolution and whilst ever it's not resolved leaves me liable to further roadside stops and possible prosecution. Caveat emptor.

Will keep updating this post with progress.

 

[Chrishazle]

I think you need to re-read Post 7 Paragraph 5. Your car was manufactured before 2004, and I believe Flanaia1 (Mrs) is a legal beagle of some description! My reading of this thread is that it's the coppers who have made a mistake, not you or MB. Because of the age of your car this legislation does not apply.

But - I could be wrong!

 

[A-AvantGarde]

If I'd had them tinted I could understand it, but the thing is that I bought the car from an MB main dealer in 2007 and haven't modifiied it in any way, other than changing the tax disc holder, so the windows are 'as supplied'.

Understood...

They're also not an after market film over the original glass they are, what I assumed to be, factory fit glass and the officers confirmed this.

Are the Police officers convinced that it is factory fitted glass?

Can you post any pictures of your SL? I don't believe any manufacturers supplied cars with a dark enough factory tint on the front side windows to block as much light as you've mentioned.

You've also described it as being dark enough that it took you time to adjust to it when you first bought the car. Where fitted well professionally it's difficult to actually tell whether it's a film. So, I would be suprised if it wasn't a tint film that the dealer or a previous owner had fitted.

I remember that Pentagon (a well respected tinting company), offered to removed tints that they had previously applied from front side windows just as the law changed.

 

[carnut]

If the Police will not quash the ticket based on the above advice , I would ask MB to support your case; if they dont play ball then suggest that they may be asked to attend court as you intend to dispute the case. I would be surprised if they want the publicity
Thats assuming there is no aftermarket tint

PS I have a 2003 model, slight tints...have you compared your tints with other SLs?

 

[markhap]

The law relating to this subject was actually from 1986 and amended in 2004, so the fact that my car was manufactured in 2002 means that the legislation still applies to it, I think.

The police stopped me and did a roadside check of the car. When I told them how surprised I was at a) being stopped at all and b) that the windows were at 21% and were as purchased from an MB main dealer they took a closer look at them and said that they were 'not obviously a film' as the top of the glass was the same colour as the external and internal sides and that there was no evidence of bubbling or any other imperfection, so the inference was that they 'could be glass' and weren't 'obviously film'. So, I can't say categorically, nor could they with a cursory inspection whether it's glass or film.

I'll post some photos later of the car...

As much as this is frustrating to be caught in the predicament, it's heartening to know that people care enough to debate and offer suggestions and assistance. Thanks again

 

[A-AvantGarde]

The law relating to this subject was actually from 1986 and amended in 2004, so the fact that my car was manufactured in 2002 means that the legislation still applies to it, I think.

The police stopped me and did a roadside check of the car. When I told them how surprised I was at a) being stopped at all and b) that the windows were at 21% and were as purchased from an MB main dealer they took a closer look at them and said that they were 'not obviously a film' as the top of the glass was the same colour as the external and internal sides and that there was no evidence of bubbling or any other imperfection, so the inference was that they 'could be glass' and weren't 'obviously film'. So, I can't say categorically, nor could they with a cursory inspection whether it's glass or film.

I'll post some photos later of the car...

As much as this is frustrating to be caught in the predicament, it's heartening to know that people care enough to debate and offer suggestions and assistance. Thanks again

I believe it may also be possible to have some form of spray tint - which probably would have needed the glass to have been removed from the car. Not sure how popular that application method is...

Would be useful to get some pictures of it, also look at the area where the manufacturers markings are on the glass. Window tint film doesn't tend to 'fit' well on the raised lettering there or on the dots / shaded areas typically found on rear windows.

 

[Palfrem]

How does the visibility / light transmission value of the level of tint on some crash helmet visors work (i.e. The Stig)?

 

[Rocco_W140]

i have seen the window tint "Spray" on ebay, but i cant see how you could get all the windows the same with a spray ??? I also saw you can get a removable film that can be reused any amount of times !

 

[flango]

Just to clarify the law only applies to films or substrates attached to the glass. If the tint is part of the glass manufacturing process then it does not apply.

If this went to prosecution the cps would not take it further.

You are in the clear, tell them where to shove their ticket, the law was clearly ammended to cover ONLY films and sprays.

Easy to tell if it is film look down the window from the top if it is a film there will be 2 fine dark bands at the outer edges, or just post a pic theres enough experience on here to tell if they were factory fit or not

 

[flango]

I believe Flanaia1 (Mrs) is a legal beagle of some description!

Mrs F is on the case when it comes to social law, but her pal is sh*t hot on motoring law. Coupled with that my best pal is a barrister so between the 3 of them they can cover most things.

Which begs the question, how the hell did I get into Engineering !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[st4]

Mrs F is on the case when it comes to social law, but her pal is sh*t hot on motoring law. Coupled with that my best pal is a barrister so between the 3 of them they can cover most things.

Which begs the question, how the hell did I get into Engineering !!!!!!!!!!!!

4 lawyers in the one social circle. Too dangerous....

 

[flango]

4 lawyers in the one social circle. Too dangerous....

Tell me about it, but there are some interesting conversations over dinner in our house when they are all round. Mrs F's real specialism is in housing law and policy, she even advises the government (although I'm not sure thats something I should be saying)