Rugby World Cup

[oldcro]

Wales did not loose today, France just scored one more point.

 

[NOMONEYBUTAMERC]

Wales did not loose today, France just scored one more point.

Noooooooooooooooooooooo. They lost . Did better than us though !

 

[grober]

You have to respect Alain Napoleon Charles de Gaulle Sarkozy Rolland's decision though. At the end of the day if they had taken all their chances they could have won it.

 

[Charles Morgan]

To paraphrase the great WG Grace, when refusing to walk having been given out, people came to watch rugby being played, not Alain Rolland umpiring.

I was under general anaesthetic until 10 mins before the end. Heartbreaking.

 

[WDB124066]

I think Wales would be very pleased France won yesterday!!

 

[renault12ts]

Funny that the welsh and scots often take the apporoach of "we will support anyone as long as it's not England".

Well, as a true Englishman - I hope the French kick you off the park

...and the Irish...

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Rather ironic that all I hear is whining about the referees decision to send warburton off, I thought rugby was all about being gracious in defeat blah blah



Vive la France!

 

[renault12ts]

Rather ironic that all I hear is whining about the referees decision to send warburton off, I thought rugby was all about being gracious in defeat blah blah



Vive la France!

Agreed...I thought it was dangerous the way he dropped the French guy.

 

[Dryce]

Rather ironic that all I hear is whining about the referees decision to send warburton off, I thought rugby was all about being gracious in defeat blah blah

The murmurs started well before Wales were beaten.

It was rather ironic IMO for a different reason.

Football has been very slow to introduce any sort of support for refs and the number of bad (critical) decisions is too high.

Rugby OTOH has an established means of review to critical decisions such as tries and the communication and instruction from the referees is better during play. By and large IMO the quality of refereeing on big occasions is better.

And on this occasion the option to review the decision before committing wasn't used.

Apart from that I'm gutted for Wales - even 1 man down they were formidable and they scored the only try and they threw away points.

But that's sport.

 

[Mozzer]

If rugby players were built like they used to be when I played rugby, he would have put his back put trying to lift him up !!!

No way was it a straight red though.

 

[Mike Walker]

With the benefit of hindsight, explanation of the rules in yesterday's papers and the decision by the disciplinary board some may wish to review their comments about the red card. Sad that he didnt go to the TMO but perhaps the referee was actually correct - french connections or not?

 

[Mr E]

With the benefit of hindsight, explanation of the rules in yesterday's papers and the decision by the disciplinary board some may wish to review their comments about the red card. Sad that he didnt go to the TMO but perhaps the referee was actually correct - french connections or not?

Absolutely - unfortunately having seen a fly-half's (and good mate) playing career ended at a very young age by such a tackle from a Flanker does make me slightly biased.

When you look at the replay there are a couple of things that come in play:

* Warburton does lift Clerc - without malice, and with some help from momentum. However, you can see that there is deliberate motion to lift Clerc.
* Having lifted a player off his feet, you are responsible for getting him down safely. Warburton let go and Clerc landed without any support from the tackler.

Was it Red? Yes, for the above reasons.

Warburton says it was without malice, and others have said it should have been yellow as Clec was not driven into the ground. However, neither of these are cited as mitigating circumstances within the rules.

Also, others have said that other similar tackles have been penalised by a Yellow card. True - but in the eyes of the rules that is wrong (unless there are reasons for a referee to step back from Red, such as when a player is not dropped or speared).

The guidelines given in 2009 and reiterated again at the start of this World Cup (to referees and coaches) state:

"The player is lifted and then forced or 'speared' into the ground (red card offence).

"The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player's safety (red card offence).

"For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles a yellow card or penalty may be considered sufficient."

Warburton fell foul of the second guideline.

Why did Rolland not consult the TMO? He's not allowed to in those circumstances.

The one thing wrong, IMHO, was that Alain Rolland was refereeing the game. I happen to think he is a pretty good ref and wouldn't call into question his partiality, but you only have to get an incident like this and it calls into play something that shouldn't even be considered.

It's a shame, as although I was supporting the French they did not play in a way deserving of a win. I expect there is much rueing missed kicks and a strange decision not to take a drop goal opportunity.

 

[stevieb15]

With the benefit of hindsight, explanation of the rules in yesterday's papers and the decision by the disciplinary board some may wish to review their comments about the red card. Sad that he didnt go to the TMO but perhaps the referee was actually correct - french connections or not?

He was right, it was a defacto dangerous tackle, the sanction for which is red card/sending off, I don't think he is allowed to send it to the TMO anyway, but if he did the finding would have been the same.
Sad though it was for Wales and Sam Warburton, due more to luck than judgement we aren't talking about a Frenchman with a broken neck

 

[Mike Walker]

Interesting point above about going to the TMO. Waht defines whena ref should or not I wonder?

 

[Beno]

Interesting point above about going to the TMO. Waht defines whena ref should or not I wonder?

Experience and judgement. If the referee feels he saw the incident/try etc. he will not use the the TMO, they are only used if the referee & touch judge's are unsighted or unsure.

 

[Dryce]

Sad though it was for Wales and Sam Warburton, due more to luck than judgement we aren't talking about a Frenchman with a broken neck

I think this is a bit OTT.

There has been far far worse in Rugby and it's the nature of the game that it is very physical.

The complication is that a tackle isn't just down to the tackler but also the momentum of the tackled player whos going to attempt to struggle forward over/under then tackler.

I thought in slowmo that the tackle looked tough. But think a yellow card was appropriate.

The policies laid out by the IRB however mean that the ref wasn't wrong. But I think if he'd gone for a yellow he wouldn't have been wrong either.

And on reflection any option to review the decision prior to making it doesn't necessarily change what the ref would do. The IRB's attempt to define the extent of the infringement with this sort of tackle didn't leave much middle ground.

As for the ban on Warburton it's presumably meaningless. And is as much to assert the authority of the rugby authorities.

That in itself presumably makes it clear to everybody in the game where the rules stand and its a very public statement of what they expect from their referees.

Compared with the regular howlers in football (and in recent years in F1) then this is much mor orderly.

What they should establish is that the ref should consider reviewing the decision with his colleagues and the video replay. It's quite normal to have a high proportion of try decisions checked. Given how few red cards there are and that giving one stops play it should be made clear that the referees should use the review option. If for no other reason than it provides better explanation to the audience.

 

[stevieb15]

"I think this is a bit OTT.

There has been far far worse in Rugby and it's the nature of the game that it is very physical"

You make the point very well, rugby is an inherently physical and violent game, its very nature calls for a direct physical contest between opposite numbers, and this is the reason why referees have to be so strict and so authoritartian to prevent dangerous extremes.
Like Mr E I played with someone back in the early 80s who suffered a severe neck injury and applaud every initiative to reduce the chances of this happening to others.

 

[Mr E]

"I thought in slowmo that the tackle looked tough. But think a yellow card was appropriate."

Look at yesterday's game - was Sonny Bill Williams' "tackle" better or worse than Warburton's? That was a dangerous tackle - in with the shoulder, no arms - but Cooper's life and career were unlikely to be at risk.

It's been a thread of conversation with workmates today - the main concensus among those who thought Red was wrong felt so, not because the ref misapplied the rules, but because it was 17 mins into a World Cup semi and it spoiled the game.

Referees are there to apply the rules of the games, and not take into account either the time remaining, the potential impact to the outcome, or the popularity of the fixture. most of the TV pundits forgot that.

Look at the SA/Aus game. SA dominant, but Rossouw pulls down the lineout. Does the ref, Bryce Lawrence, have to take into account the potential impact of the penalty - which in this case meant that Aus won the game in spite of a poor performance - and the fact that there was only a few minutes remaining? Of course not.

Let's hope we never get to the point of referees having to pander to the sponsors and audiences when making decisions.

 

[Stratman]

Interesting point above about going to the TMO. Waht defines whena ref should or not I wonder?

I've been involved in providing replays for Union matches including the Six Nations, and the ref can only ask the TMO (Television Match Official) for assistance in deciding if a try has been scored. He can ask for 'over the line', 'correct grounding' and 'foot in touch'.

 

[Dryce]

I've been involved in providing replays for Union matches including the Six Nations, and the ref can only ask the TMO (Television Match Official) for assistance in deciding if a try has been scored. He can ask for 'over the line', 'correct grounding' and 'foot in touch'.

I think in principle the ref should be able to ask for the TMO any decision that involves a yellow or red, if there is an suspicion of a major infringement that was covert (eg. naughties on the blind side of a ruck, maul, or scrum), or if there is a problem identifying a player who actually committed the offence.

Rugby has improved a lot with the refs being miked up (it's good to be able to hear them at work on the pitch), the TMO being used to improve the decisions on try awards, and the match clock.