RWD with LSD vs 4WD ?

[stevebgt1]

how do you mean ? You would go back to a car that you felt safer in ?

 

[moonloops]

I think it depends what you use your car for. Personally, I don't drive on public roads in a manner where either understeer or oversteer are serious issues for me. On a track, however, RWD will certainly be more fun but for a day-to-day proposition there is something to be said for just flooring the throttle after the apex and having the car pull you round without any scrabbling...

99% of 4WD cars on track are useless.

 

[stevebgt1]

99% of 4WD cars on track are useless.

Really ?

I don't know much about this cos I am a bike racing fan, but , in the Porsche Super Cup series are they running 2 or 4 wheel drive 911`S ?

 

[renault12ts]

how do you mean ? You would go back to a car that you felt safer in ?

No..I wouldn't be testing my limits (nor the car's) on the public road.

 

[stevebgt1]

No..I wouldn't be testing my limits (nor the car's) on the public road.

That's my point. Anyone who tells you they find the limit on the road is either lying , or completely irresponsible and dangerous. So....

Why do people like spending their hard earned on modifictions ?

Because they can.

It`s something to brag about in the pub or on forums.

Granted , track day users...go for it !

I would have a guess that most AMG owners buy them for the prestige, the power, the status or whatever floats their boat.

These C63`s are Beasts, but you have to respect them. Otherwise it can cost you a lot in one way or another....

 

[renault12ts]

I have found the limits of my other car on a track...and it was a hoot. But on the road it would have meant certain death.

The problem with exploring the limits is the point when you find what you are looking for, and in the wrong place...

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Rhetorical...maybe ...
I suppose I am merely seeking a majority vote here. I personally `feel` safer in an AWD performance car on the road than I do in a RWD car. That said, there are probably far better drivers on here than can explore the limits and beyond of their RWD cars and never look back. Coming from an Audi driver of the last 5 years or so, I am struggling to find the same measure of safe feeling in my C63. It`s brutal power is addictive, but un predictable too...

In a way you're contradicting yourself; you feel more comfortable pushing an AWD than a RWD on the road yet that gives a false sense of security in much the same way people buy 4x4's thinking they can drive off-road or in the snow easily when in fact the number one thing over all these issues is how suitable the tyres are for the condition.

I think you've obviously set yourself in the FWD/AWD camp due to familiarity but to me it's restrictive and from an engineering point of view not as good as RWD.

 

[kid-jensen]

With the greatest respect, the posters above who say you can't get to the limit on public roads obviously don't drive in the London suburbs!

I get speed-limiting understeer on the roundabout 100ysds from home, and every other one after that...,. roads are so slippery and badly maintained these days because the "Road Fund" Licence" is spent on anything but roads, and we all know what we're left with....

No matter how good the grip of your tyres, you better know what to do when it runs out. The numbing effect of 4WD masks steering feel enormously. Press-on, and it will understeer like a 1959 Mini on crossplys.

If you enjoy driving, you will need a car with a "handling repertoire", not just armfulls of understeer built-in because the car company lawyers don't trust us to keep the cars on the road.

I will not have the handling of my car dictated to by some schemeing pile of self-interest in an expensive suit (no ofence to any lawyers on the Forum, obviously).

Spend the money on the LSD and enjoy the car whilst you can.....they'll be illegal soon enough.

 

[renault12ts]

^ I suppose I was talking about the limits reached at high speeds...not greasy urban roads.

 

[stevebgt1]

In a way you're contradicting yourself; you feel more comfortable pushing an AWD than a RWD on the road yet that gives a false sense of security in much the same way people buy 4x4's thinking they can drive off-road or in the snow easily when in fact the number one thing over all these issues is how suitable the tyres are for the condition.

I think you've obviously set yourself in the FWD/AWD camp due to familiarity but to me it's restrictive and from an engineering point of view not as good as RWD.

Fair comment. Obviuosly from a guy that knows what he wants, and more so understands what he wants.
I will continue to learn how to drive this car properly and analyse whether the transition across to RWD was the right thing to do. Regarding the LSD, may as well give it a go, seems to be the popular upgrade, and if all else fails, it should help sell the car as opposed to one without.
Thank you all for your points of view, I have just been ignorant to this type of driving due to running Audi Quattro`s for the last few years.

 

[bolide]

99% of 4WD cars on track are useless.

Maybe, but 99% of all cars are useless on track, so what does this prove?

Nick Froome

 

[Mr Kripling]

In a way you're contradicting yourself; you feel more comfortable pushing an AWD than a RWD on the road yet that gives a false sense of security in much the same way people buy 4x4's thinking they can drive off-road or in the snow easily when in fact the number one thing over all these issues is how suitable the tyres are for the condition.

By extension, would you argue that having an LSD fitted to a car gives a “false” sense of security? I don’t drive my CL sideways round country roads but I know that on the occasions I have approached its grip limit, it was much more controllable with the diff than without. Aside from some sort of risk compensation argument, I’d say the same holds true for AWD, especially since understeer is inherently safer than oversteer.

I think you've obviously set yourself in the FWD/AWD camp due to familiarity but to me it's restrictive and from an engineering point of view not as good as RWD.

That really rather depends on what you mean by "an engineering point of view". I’ve owned both AWD and RWD cars and have enough understanding of their engineering and dynamics to say that it’s a case of horses for courses. While RWD has a number of advantages for performance purposes, I’d argue that F/AWD has a number of advantages for the majority of road driving.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

That really rather depends on what you mean by "an engineering point of view".

As in having the front wheels having to steer/brake/accelerate all at the same time, not to mention the limitations of the FWD/AWD the turning circle.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Fair comment. Obviuosly from a guy that knows what he wants, and more so understands what he wants.
I will continue to learn how to drive this car properly and analyse whether the transition across to RWD was the right thing to do. Regarding the LSD, may as well give it a go, seems to be the popular upgrade, and if all else fails, it should help sell the car as opposed to one without.
Thank you all for your points of view, I have just been ignorant to this type of driving due to running Audi Quattro`s for the last few years.

I had a very similar talk with an old friend of mine a few year ago on much the same subject and our conclusion was that the first 'proper' performance car you own will usually define your car buying in the future; his first was a V10 M5 which he owned for about a year and he replaced that with a V10 RS6, this lasted barely a month because as rapid as it was, it just felt detached.

 

[stevebgt1]

My first proper performance car was a 911. C2s 997 (RWD.)
Took it to Nordschleife with my mate in his V8 M5. We had a big crash in his M5, hence I tiptoed round my 8 laps as I was still a little shaken. That was back in 2008.
I remember my mate completely losing control of the M5, and to be fair he is a good driver, and that memory will stick with me forever. After that I moved on to Audi`s.
Maybe it`s my sub - conscious that thinks that RWD cars are ALL tail happy.... I need to prove myself wrong.

 

[Mr Kripling]

As in having the front wheels having to steer/brake/accelerate all at the same time, not to mention the limitations of the FWD/AWD the turning circle.

Well, having the weight over the front wheels is why FWD cars are better in low-grip conditions than an equivalent RWD Car. As for turning circle, that could be why most city cars are RWD (also, the current A6 and E-Class have identical turning circles...)

FWD cars are also better for motorway journeys since they don't require the negative castor on their front wheels that RWD cars do (and which causes the common complaints about Mercs following the camber of the road).

From "an engineering point of view" FWD cars are also more economical to make and run which is exactly why they make up the majority of cars on the road. That's also, however, why people tend to dislike them - because they're seen as "cheap".

 

[Eddie01]

My C55 was tricky to drive in poor weather, it was best exploited on a warn dry day, then, I had the LSD installed, it tied the rear and front together but still suffered in poor conditions. When I say tricky, not pushing on like an idiot more along the lines of pulling away at busy junctions, over taking from slower speeds, turn in on wet roads, normal every day driving.
It was biased as a fast road car NOT a track day weapon, on the roads it was fine to drive and you had to moderate your style to adapt to the conditions.
My replacement 996 turbo is 4WD and in all the above situations it requires little to no moderation to driving style, this could possibly be a combination of factors, chassis related rather than just the 4WD system.
Some have clearly purchased the 63 for the event, others to scratch an itch, it's a personal thing but there is no escaping the 63 is a handful and needs lots of moderation in anything other than normal weather conditions, I'm sure it's a real hoot in summer with the LSD.

 

[Mr Kripling]

I think the problem is that most cars, even performance ones are set up from the factory to be biased toward understeer (since it's inherently safer).

Unfortunately, when those cars have a lot of poke, like an AMG, it's possible to snap from understeer to oversteer by applying power too soon coming out of a corner hence the feeling of the car being a handful.

 

[abar121]

By being cheapskates and not including LSDs as standard and wider rear bodywork to enable appropriate width rear tyres, Merc did everything possible to ensure that the C63 is traction limited.

Even an E39 M5 with nothing like the same thump, has 275 section rears that are also larger in circumference, plus a great LSD. They have probably cost themselves plenty of sales as a result, particularly from those that just like the car to do everything for them. Hit the throttle and go..

But for the rest of us that love some oversteer and the feeling of actually having to moderate the throttle / balance for grip, it's lovely Add an LSD and decent wider rear tyres and it's a much more balanced / capable package. At least the W205 C63 has an LSD as standard.

The complete opposite to every Audi I've driven including some proper Quattro RS models (not Haldex..), which are utterly dull in comparison.

911s are a bit different. From those that I've owned / driven, I've never really understood why the 4wd models are so popular. Traction has always been superb with all that weight in the back, even on wet roads. If you live in the Alps, or have a crazy tuned turbo version, things are different

 

[Deleted member 37751]

FWD cars are also better for motorway journeys since they don't require the negative castor on their front wheels that RWD cars do (and which causes the common complaints about Mercs following the camber of the road).

From "an engineering point of view" FWD cars are also more economical to make and run which is exactly why they make up the majority of cars on the road. That's also, however, why people tend to dislike them - because they're seen as "cheap".

Your arguments are based on costs, which we're not talking about, not engineering. Besides traction in really really bad weather or when in the hands of someone who has been in a FWD all their life, RWD is a much better all round car to drive, I really can't see how anyone can even compare the two.