Secret Data gathering

Discussion in 'Driving/Incidents/Roadrage' started by DaveK, Apr 3, 2008.

  1. DaveK

    DaveK Banned

    Messages:
    496
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Location:
    St Helens
    Car:
    ML270
    Firstly, this is not intended as a book of condolence so please go and start your own thread if you only want to offer sympathy.

    I would like to look at the wider issue, the issue of car makers planting spying devices in a vehicle that they no long own once they have sold it to you.
    Should they have the right to monitor how you are using the vehicle. ?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=554249&in_page_id=1770
     
  2. Ratz

    Ratz Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    526
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Car:
    17 E350d in Senorite Grey
    Try again...

    Tough one this, obviously the particular case you link to would be precisely the situation in which most people would probably advocate such devices. The rub comes with where you draw the line and who has access to the information. I am no lawyer but I would personally feel happy with such devices if the availability of the data they held was carefully controlled - perhaps only in the case of an accident?

    However as with all such data it will be used and abused by law makers, committee's and governments to support their case for ever increasing legislation against the motorist.
     
  3. Carrotchomper

    Carrotchomper Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    1,234
    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Location:
    Bristol
    Car:
    Audi A8 4.2 Quattro
    I see no particular problem with this, it doesn't have a GPS transmitter sending the date elsewhere to the Government or anything. Whilst there's the clear potential to incriminate the driver in an accident scenario you could look at it from the other angle...

    ...Dangerous driving cases are frequently prosecuted on the word of witnesses whose judgement of speed is woefully excessive and often based on value judgements (Loud exhaust=fast, sports car=fast) rather than fact. This type of data could potentially save you from prosecution, or at the very least minimise the penalties.
     
  4. fuzzer

    fuzzer MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    7,939
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2002
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Car:
    F25 X3 20d SE
    ***** not passing comment on this case in particular!!!!******

    ( you are about to read generalisms and i pass no judgement of either party involved in this case)

    Im not particuarly happy about data being collated in this way.

    However , i think personally it would be quite shocking the level of information that the onboard sensors store ready to be harvested at the next service when plugged into a computer.


    ***** not passing comment on this case in particular!!!!******
     
  5. robert.saunders

    robert.saunders Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    3,744
    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2004
    Location:
    South Lincs / Hampshire
    Car:
    W210 E300TD
    Considering modern cars are bristling with IT technology I would suggest it's difficult not to leave a footprint of everything the car has done, ie speed, when serviced (plugged in to garage computers) and so on. What's the big deal? I don't think it's "secret data gathering" at all.

    Whether information stored thus should be made available for criminal evidence, well why not. As Carrot states, it can protect the innocent too
     
  6. agatward

    agatward Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    240
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Location:
    Reading, Berks.
    Car:
    A150 SE
    I think it's a good thing to have data like this recorded. Firstly it helps show whether there was a mechanical or other defect in the car or whether an accident was driver error. Secondly it helps convict the idiots who think they can get away with making up lies to cover their own backs.

    Trains and planes have had this type of technology for years, and similar devices are slowly being incorporated into buses / coaches as well, alongside CCTV. The last few seconds before impact can often be crucial to an investigation into what really happened, and if there is factual data in terms of sensor logs then this can only help the authorities and investigators.

    Don't forget that things like the airbag data recorders only trigger after a set sequence of events, so they would not be logging data all the time.
     
  7. OP
    OP
    DaveK

    DaveK Banned

    Messages:
    496
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Location:
    St Helens
    Car:
    ML270
    Bit of a shunt, in to the insurers approved body place..then letter from Insurers arrives stating that the data says you were doing 45 mph and the location you have given for the accident has a 40 mph limit, there for not paying up. Could happen.
     
  8. Flash

    Flash Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    4,874
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2003
    Location:
    London
    Car:
    CLS 350 CDI Sport - W218 with Full AMG Styling, Bentley Conti GT
    I think that for accidents/incidents such as this one it is great!

    I have no problem with it what so ever.
     
  9. W210 Fan

    W210 Fan Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    1,434
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2005
    Location:
    Godalming
    Car:
    W140 S500L W208 430
    It was always going to happen, racing cars carry this type of data recorder already so data analists can record why accidents happen and stop it happening again, however, as much as race car technology is making its way down to road drivers, eg, flappy paddle gearboxes that keep hands on steering wheels, better tyres that offer more grip, driver skills are not, hence, this type of `black box recorder` is essential for car designers to ascertain the typical mental state and concentration levels of the average road driver to design cars that he/she car drive with a reduced number of crashes,

    As much as I am against data on my driving being recorded it is for the good of the masses that is is happening,

    Who is to say this this type of data is not already being recorded - how different is the Merc or BMW vario service system??
     
  10. OP
    OP
    DaveK

    DaveK Banned

    Messages:
    496
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Location:
    St Helens
    Car:
    ML270
    No, it's for the good of those who can make money out of us...the courts, the insurers for a start off.
     
  11. Carrotchomper

    Carrotchomper Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    1,234
    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Location:
    Bristol
    Car:
    Audi A8 4.2 Quattro
    **Yawn** Awaiting diatribe...:devil:
     
  12. grober

    grober MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    26,714
    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Location:
    Perth, Scotland
    Car:
    W204 C200CDI Estate
    Likewise. A post accident "blackbox" like planes have can only be good thing in establishing what happened. This would mean a single dump of data which should only record say the last hour of vehicle data before continuous overwrite. A device which continuously sends back data of vehicle location,speed etc to some monitoring facility would be step too far. Although this is done for fleet vehicles now for business purposes extending it to privately owned cars is definitely a step too far and open to "selling on " to third parties.
     
  13. OP
    OP
    DaveK

    DaveK Banned

    Messages:
    496
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Location:
    St Helens
    Car:
    ML270
    Can we even trust the data collected to be accurate ?. How many of us have taken our vehicles back to the main stealers with faults only to be told there is nothing wrong cos the computer says so ?
     
  14. DansSlk

    DansSlk Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    1,015
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Depends on what data you log doesn't it, you would only need basic data and its not often the simple sensors for things such as wheel speed get it wrong.

    I agree with grober, the car's store this sort of data anyways (engine and transmission adaption being just one reason) not always for very long but if you gave the major control units some memory dedicated to storing the last hour of basic data (wheel speed, brake pedal travel, G forces, steering angle, engine speed and selected gear) and have them dump that data to the airbag control module if you have an accident that triggers the airbags.

    That way your car won't build up a history of how you drive and you could also tell the airbag module only to hold that data for X amount of days or miles, also by picking what parameters get logged you can build in some redundancy for example if for some wild reason the car reports you where doing 140 MPH but the engine speed and selected gear show 2000 RPM in 1st then clearly the speedo data is not accurate and I'm sure anybody looking at the data would be smart enough to figure that out.

    Just so long as the data is only ever held internally and cannot be transmitted because thats a different game altogether.
     
  15. imadoofus

    imadoofus Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    2,859
    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Car:
    This and that.
    Many years ago, Saab (IIRC) trialled a system whereby the speedo needle locked instantly in the event of rapid deceleration (a crash), so the speed of the car at the time was recorded.

    This didn't find its way into production partly because people didn't want to be spied upon.
     
  16. st13phil

    st13phil MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    7,452
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2007
    Location:
    North Oxfordshire
    Car:
    His - Denim Blue A220 AMG Line Premium / Hers - Obsidian Black R172 SLK55
    Back in the late 1970's I had a crash on a 1969 Triumph Daytona motorcycle (not my fault, but that's irrelevant to this post). The bike and I ended up sliding down the road and it hit the back of a parked car. I was carted off in an ambulance, but fortunately someone I knew stayed at the scene to recover the bike.

    Mr Plod arrived and started measuring up, examining the bike and so forth. Mr Plod looked at the speedo on the bike, noted that the needle was frozen at approx 85mph and uttered words along the lines of "deserves to have been killed, travelling at that speed" (the crash was in a residential back street). Fortunately, my mate was there and heard the remark. He then pointed out to Mr Plod that the speedo drive on that bike was taken from the rear wheel and as the bike slid down the road on it's side it had hit max revs, hence the grossly incorrect reading on the speedo.

    Just a little tale to show that a) the technology has to be properly understood, and b) the data captured has to be properly interpreted. My experience is that Police accident investigators are not as good at both these tasks as they like to believe or have the rest of us believe.
     
  17. st4

    st4 Banned

    Messages:
    14,374
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Location:
    In the driving seat
    Car:
    C220cdi tourer
    My view, leaving the circumstances of the case out of it, is that other evidence can be used to asseertain the causes of a crash.

    For example deformation to the car(s) involved, tire marks, eye witnesses. The idea of my car "grassing me up" is not one that appeals personally and again a bit "big brother" for me personally.

    Remember the crime here is dangerous driving, and he should be punished accordingly, there was no malicious intent here. Its an emotive case because of the age of the person who is injured and the wealth/type of car of the driver, but that doesn't detract from the facts that his only crime was dangerous driving.

    A community service punishment is more appropriate IMO. The media is clearly manipulating this by putting displaying the affluence of the kid who did this, and there slant is the "big bad rich kid".

    Accuracy of the sensors in the car etc comes into play also, and how credible a source of evidence these are.
     
  18. janner

    janner Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    2,816
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Car:
    E320 Turbo Technics
    Do you get the feeling that they took lots of pictures of him and printed the one that makes him look the most smug?
    I've often thought of putting a digital video camera in my car so that if I crash all the info will be there.
    I'd probably hit 'erase' if it was my fault though :eek:
     
  19. st4

    st4 Banned

    Messages:
    14,374
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Location:
    In the driving seat
    Car:
    C220cdi tourer
    Yes and you'll notice is a picture of him with his father and also well dressed to give a "daddies boy image". Also notice how they (the daily mail) included a picture of the car. The repeated use of the phrase range rover etc was designed etc for you to dislike him from the outset.

    If you choose to mount a camera and film your driving as an evidence gather, fair cop as its your choice. But for your cars data to be searched I think is off.
     
  20. verytalldave

    verytalldave Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    3,595
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    Location:
    Bromley, Kent
    Car:
    W203 C200K Cubanite
    Overall, not a good idea. Too many unknowns and variables to make any data gathered to be useable or relied upon. Not only that, but to accept that in principle potentially opens the floodgates for further intrusions into our private lives that we would be told would be "helpful".
    Sorry, but it doesnt get my vote. Too Big Brother for me.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.