Seeking Help. WWII Merchant Navy - City of Bath - Ellerman Lines

[brucemillar]

Folks

I am doing some long overdue research into a (now deceased) family members time in the Merchant Navy Convoys during WWII.

He was Chief Engineer on the following ship:

City of Bath

Torpedoed & sunk by U508 on the 02nd December 1942 of the coast of Brazil.

Searches on The U-boat Wars 1939-1945 (Kriegsmarine) and 1914-1918 (Kaiserliche Marine) and Allied Warships of WWII - uboat.net and various other sites have shown the bare minimum of facts. There is/was a much bigger story that followed the sinking with regards to the surviving crew who split into two groups in open boats.

I am interested in that side of the story along with information on any other surviving members of her crew. Please contact me if you have any good pointers or are able to assist.

Kind Regards

Bruce

 

[brucemillar]

Gentle bump.

 

[Mick K]

Hi Bruce, you might have better luck asking on here : Ships Nostalgia

Best of luck

Mike

 

[Mick K]

Just come from ships nostalgia, saw you have had a few good leads - result ! There is a pretty wide pool of knowledge about all things Merchant Navy there.

MikeK

 

[brucemillar]

Mike

Yes one chap has PM'd me and offered some personal help with tracing wartime records. Indeed a very good site. Thank you for pointing me there. What was rather poignant was the Tower Hill Memorial lists the ship and the crew who died that night. This includes the Radio Officer who was my Uncles close friend. They had joked about him having a tailor made life jacket (he was a big guy). That tailor made life jacket resulted in him drowning when it turned him turtle. Covered in fuel oil my uncle and other survivors were unable to pull him onto their lifeboat.

U508 surfaced at daylight and offered assistance to the remaining crew. My uncle clearly remembered Captain Staas as he wished them luck having given some directions, water, chocolate and cigarettes.

U508 was sunk later in the war with the loss of all 53 crew in the Bay of Biscay by an RAF Liberator Bomber.

 

[Mick K]

Hi Bruce, yes I read the posts over there, including the tragic Sparky and his tailor made lifejacket. I believe even the standard cork lifejackets were not very well designed with a tendency to tip the wearer forward.
Out of curiosity I followed the link given to the Tower Hill Merchant Navy Memorial and did a search for my childhood best friend's dad who I knew vaguely died at sea in WW2 and found out his ship and when she was torpedoed so I benefited a little from your search as well.
Glad my time at sea was a long time after it was all over !

Mike

 

[D-18]

This forum is predominantly for Naval rather than merchant ships, but there is a wealth of knowledge so it may be worth posting a query:
World Naval Ships Forums

 

[Red C220]

Mike

U508 surfaced at daylight and offered assistance to the remaining crew. My uncle clearly remembered Captain Staas as he wished them luck having given some directions, water, chocolate and cigarettes.

It's acts of this nature that defined the men of that period of our history.

Many of these men were simply destroying machinery and found the loss of life associated with it unpalatable. German and British alike.

I feel something of this attitude has got lost in the last 70 years.

 

[brucemillar]

It's acts of this nature that defined the men of that period of our history.

Many of these men were simply destroying machinery and found the loss of life associated with it unpalatable. German and British alike.

I feel something of this attitude has got lost in the last 70 years.

It is all the more extraordinary given the Captain Staats would have known that he was disobeying orders (the Laconia order) not to assist survivors.

The Laconia order was issued after U-156 sank the Laconia and then realised that there were civilain casualties along with Italian casualties in the water. The 156 issued an open radio message stating that she was picking up survivors and seeking assistance. She also stated that she would not fire on any vessels seeking to assist and would not expect to be fired upon.

Unfortunately having picked up a 193 survivors and put in tow several lifeboats she was attacked by an American Liberator forcing her to crash dive with survivors on her decks (the life boats were cut loose). Donitz then issued his order that U-boats should no longer assist in such instances.

1. Every attempt to save survivors of sunken ships, also the fishing up of swimming men and putting them on board lifeboats, the setup right of overturned lifeboats, the handing over of food and water have be discontinued. These rescues contradict the primitive demands of warfare esp. the destruction of enemy ships and their crews.
2. The orders concerning the bringing in of skippers and chief engineers stay in effect.
3. Survivors are only to rescue, if their statements are important for the boat.
4. Stay hard. Don't forget, that the enemy didn't take any regard for woman and children when bombarding German towns.

 

[Harrythedog]

I too have been trying to research my late father in laws military history to no avail. I know he was sunk twice in the South Atlantic and repatriated via Fray Bentos but what ships he was on I don't know as he never spoke about it. I don't even know if he was in the Royal Navy or Merchant as he was an enlisted officer but we do have his rank and number.

 

[brucemillar]

I too have been trying to research my late father in laws military history to no avail. I know he was sunk twice in the South Atlantic and repatriated via Fray Bentos but what ships he was on I don't know as he never spoke about it. I don't even know if he was in the Royal Navy or Merchant as he was an enlisted officer but we do have his rank and number.

A good starting point would be here (thanks to Mick) Ships Nostalgia

Go the "hello" section and and ask for help stating that you have some details. I got an immediate and helpful response that has given me lots of great pointers and started me on a journey that has opened my eyes to what others suffered for our freedom. It is clear that being at sea during these times must have been a truly terrifying experience that we can only guess at. Good luck with your search.

One other tip I can give you. Search under unlikely key words. I found more on the uboat.net pages than I ever would have imagined. It is clear that some kept more detailed records (and continue to update them) than others. Also that translation leads to simple mistakes in spellings (especially with names).

 

[trapperjohn]

This thread got me started to think about my Dad. RIP. He was a Japaneses PoW and came back from the East on a ship called Orduna. He named his first house Orduna. The following is a cut and paste from The Shipping Times.

ORDUNA 1913
The ORDUNA was built by Harland & Wolff, Belfast in 1913 for the Pacific Steam Navigation Co. She was a 15,507 gross ton ship, length 550.3ft x beam 67.3ft, one funnel, two masts, triple screw and a speed of 14 knots. There was passenger accommodation for 240-1st, 180-2nd and 700-3rd class. Launched on 2nd Oct.1913, she left Liverpool on her maiden voyage to Rio de Janeiro, Montevideo and Valparaiso on 19th Feb.1914. She made two voyages on this run and was then chartered to Cunard Line and used on their Liverpool - New York service until 1919. On 1st Apr.1920 she resumed Liverpool - Rio - Montevideo - Valparaiso sailings and on 28th May 1921 commenced Hamburg - Southampton - New York voyages under charter to Royal Mail Steam Packet Co, who purchased her in 1923. Rebuilt in 1926 to oil burning engines, and with accommodation for 234-1st, 186-2nd and 483-3rd class passengers. In 1927 she returned to Pacific Steam Nav. Co and resumed Liverpool - Rio - Montevideo - Valparaiso service. In 1930 she transferred to Liverpool - Panama - Valparaiso sailings, and stayed on this route until 1940. In July 1940 she sailed from Liverpool to Lisbon, repatriating French nationals after the fall of France, and on this voyage, sailed fully illuminated at night under an international safe conduct guarantee. In February 1941 she was requisitioned as a troopship. After the fall of Madagascar, she carried the Vichy French governor and his staff from Tamatave to Durban and on her homeward voyage, carried 500 French naval officers and ratings to the UK to join the Free French forces. On the fall of Abyssinia, she took part of the West African Division from Berbera to Durban where they were transhipped, and later was employed ferrying American troops from Oran to Naples in the final phases of the Italian campaign. In August 1945 she was the commodore ship of the invasion force which was to re-occupy Malaya, and after the surrender of Japan, she carried 1,700 prisoners of war from Rangoon to Liverpool in September. After this she carried out trooping voyages to the East Indies, Indo-China and Japan and in October 1946 carried away the last British troops from French North Africa. She completed her last trooping voyage from Liverpool to Singapore and back in Nov.1950. By then, after 10 years of steady trooping, with little time for refit or proper maintenance and 36 years old, she was in poor shape and of little use as a passenger ship. Therefore in 1951 she was sold for scrap and broken up at Dalmuir. [South Atlantic Seaway by N.R.P.Bonsor][P.S.N.Liner "Orduna" by J.H.Isherwood, Sea Breezes Magazine, March 1965]

So a ship built before WW1 brought home troops from WW2.

 

[brucemillar]

Hi Bruce, yes I read the posts over there, including the tragic Sparky and his tailor made lifejacket. I believe even the standard cork lifejackets were not very well designed with a tendency to tip the wearer forward.
Out of curiosity I followed the link given to the Tower Hill Merchant Navy Memorial and did a search for my childhood best friend's dad who I knew vaguely died at sea in WW2 and found out his ship and when she was torpedoed so I benefited a little from your search as well.
Glad my time at sea was a long time after it was all over !

Mike

Well I am truly blessed and humbled. Somebody who I have never met has contacted me from the ships nostalgia web site (Thank you Mick on this forum for pointing me there). He has found my uncles war records in a Seaman's Pouch in Kew and possible an unclaimed medal) He has provided me with all the reference numbers I need to take to Kew.

We truly have some some great people who are prepared to help others who they have never met for no reward and seeking none either.

Big Hug folks. Off to the pub now for sombre, thoughtful but happy pint.

 

[Mick K]

Well I am truly blessed and humbled. Somebody who I have never met has contacted me from the ships nostalgia web site (Thank you Mick on this forum for pointing me there). He has found my uncles war records in a Seaman's Pouch in Kew and possible an unclaimed medal) He has provided me with all the reference numbers I need to take to Kew.

We truly have some some great people who are prepared to help others who they have never met for no reward and seeking none either.

Big Hug folks. Off to the pub now for sombre, thoughtful but happy pint.

Great stuff ! So happy to have been of help.
Make that a couple of pints

Mike