Service rip off

[OneForTheRoad]

£850 will include b service and atf service ,which is £380 .

 

[Tuercas viejas]

£850 will include b service and atf service ,which is £380 .

So that is about $1190 and $532.
Which give or take a bit is about the same as my charges as an Independent.
Dealer charge out rates are about $200 to $250/hr in California and up on the East coast in the former 13 Colony areas . (140 to 178 ish Pounds )
Locally for me, the dealer rate is close to $180/hr
All dictated of course by the cost of doing business -i.e Overheads, City taxes (rates for businesses ) i.e the Gubbermint .
One thing though ,certainly no bloody 20% VAT to tack on the tail!
My tax rate on parts only is 4.6%, & Zero on labor tariffs.

This I suppose brings me to the subject of customer profiles.
Any successful auto repair shop runs on stats & profiles with daily computed financials being pumped out every few hours.

So generally the customer profiles & categories in the US are as follows with the mantra that all customers are good customers -BUT!!!
Of all the potential customer base in the area you serve about 23% are cream puff customers
They expect you to do the job and generally don't question the bill.
You look after them and don't screw them over.

Then there are the next category comprising of about 52%
These customers buying habits range from being easy sell clients to hard to get a repair decision types were the skill of the shop service writer comes in .
I employ a female highly skilled Service Writer who was top gun tech for a Nissan dealer and before that for Firestone ,so she knows tyres & suspension very well.
She is my main stay for selling & up selling services/repairs . Its a base pay salaried position, with a commission based compensation plan.

The rest drop into a final 20% basket of which about 17,5 % are what are known on this side as price shoppers.
They will phone around a 1000 shops in the Denver Metro area looking for the best price they can find over the phone then try to barter it down.
Sometimes you can spend a lot of valuable shop time trying to attract this customer who is often hard to accept anything offred . These folks are a mixed bunch & you can waste a lot of time trying to sell even an oil change which is generally a loss leader anyway.

Then the final 2,5 %, best described as nutters who just want to talk and waste your time.
I suppose what category do you the forum members fall into?
Tuercas Viejas

 

[Funkyboy]

So that is about $1190 and $532.
Which give or take a bit is about the same as my charges as an Independent.
Dealer charge out rates are about $200 to $250/hr in California and up on the East coast in the former 13 Colony areas . (140 to 178 ish Pounds )
Locally for me, the dealer rate is close to $180/hr
All dictated of course by the cost of doing business -i.e Overheads, City taxes (rates for businesses ) i.e the Gubbermint .
One thing though ,certainly no bloody 20% VAT to tack on the tail!
My tax rate on parts only is 4.6%, & Zero on labor tariffs.

This I suppose brings me to the subject of customer profiles.
Any successful auto repair shop runs on stats & profiles with daily computed financials being pumped out every few hours.

So generally the customer profiles & categories in the US are as follows with the mantra that all customers are good customers -BUT!!!
Of all the potential customer base in the area you serve about 23% are cream puff customers
They expect you to do the job and generally don't question the bill.
You look after them and don't screw them over.

Then there are the next category comprising of about 52%
These customers buying habits range from being easy sell clients to hard to get a repair decision types were the skill of the shop service writer comes in .
I employ a female highly skilled Service Writer who was top gun tech for a Nissan dealer and before that for Firestone ,so she knows tyres & suspension very well.
She is my main stay for selling & up selling services/repairs . Its a base pay salaried position, with a commission based compensation plan.

The rest drop into a final 20% basket of which about 17,5 % are what are known on this side as price shoppers.
They will phone around a 1000 shops in the Denver Metro area looking for the best price they can find over the phone then try to barter it down.
Sometimes you can spend a lot of valuable shop time trying to attract this customer who is often hard to accept anything offred . These folks are a mixed bunch & you can waste a lot of time trying to sell even an oil change which is generally a loss leader anyway.

Then the final 2,5 %, best described as nutters who just want to talk and waste your time.
I suppose what category do you the forum members fall into?
Tuercas Viejas

You employ people to sell up? Either something needs doing or it doesn't there's no need to sell anything unless it's all about money

 

[Fastcar155]

Yes. They are not permitted to do anything else (with the exception of very few items, such as engine oil).

Hi markjay , maybe I used the incorrect wording.

A friend of mine has had a large diesel estate car ( not a Mercedes ) from new.The discs and pads were changed at 20,000 miles.Next service the car had to have its pads and discs changed again.

He asked the service manager of the garage concerned what's going on ,her reply , the quality of the parts being supplied by the manufacture are sub standard.

The UK supplier was not interested in the problem so he contacted the the manufacture who arranged a credit note to be raised against his account for the work done.

 

[Tuercas viejas]

You employ people to sell up? Either something needs doing or it doesn't there's no need to sell anything unless it's all about money

Yes business is all about the money, if you don't understand or grasp that fundamental aspect, then you are living in cuckoo cloud UK !
Up selling is part of any business.
Let's leave the auto repair business for a moment, and look at the hospitality sector for an example.
I expect some of you can remember taking the missus out to dinner.
Joint decision "Let's go to that cozy restaurant in the West End of Podunk Town UK, and enjoy a good T bone steak and French fries and a Salad etc."
You arrive and sit down & the Maitre D' brings the menus which are placed before you.
First, would you like a drink while you are deciding, an aperitif perhaps. If you say yes! That is a direct upsell.
You both decide on the main course but then! Can we offer you an appetizer . If you say yes, then that is an upsell.
The main course arrives and ,can we bring you the wine & beer list?--a potential upsell.
Anything to follow? A desert perhaps, an after dinner drink, cheese & biscuits (very Brtt) again an upsell !
OK get the picture ?
Now with that preamble in place let's go back to the auto repair shop scene .

Any vehicle that comes in the premises for "work "MUST be inspected and road tested BEFORE you touch the actual service, and repair ,obtaining a signature of authorization on the R/O from the customer.
Failure to do this leaves the shop open to all sorts of liability.

So the vehicle is in for an A service , but the inspection shows rusted brake lines and the engine mounts collapsed.
You inform the customer via the service writer that there are serious safety related aspects of the car that need to be urgently taken care of ! Is that an upsell ?
Remember the customer has the right to say NO!

Now dealers advertise teaser rates or Menu Pricing on such things as routine oil changes.
These are loss leaders!
Why do the do it? To upsell services and sell, new or used cars to those who are attracted by these teaser advertising tactics
What is upsell to one is not to another.
Call it barefaced capitalism if you wish, but even since the horse and cart, or the fancy schmancy Oldsmobile carriage & drays in the early to mid 19th century, there was upsell on both sides of the pond .
That was of course when Britain was the head of an empire controlling 4/5ths of the world . Upsell was a way of life then, as it is today.
Tuercas Viejas



.

 

[Jockcl500]

It depends how the upsell is sold/offered
Most people see upselling as a way to get you to spend cash on something you don't want or need, where it is to offer a appetiser
- Do you want an appetiser? - feels like a question.
Where you have a car in for a service and they come to you with
- You need new brake lines they are rusty "We shouldn't let you drive away"
Do you want us to do them? - seems more like upselling
I have seen this sort of thing go on as a scam, back in the 80s a well known fast fit outfit, upselling shockers etc to unsuspecting naïve customers, that don't know a good part from a broken one, then the mechanic gets bonus for upsell and also sells the used part as there was nothing wrong with it.
Unfortunately the honest are destined to be poor or at least not as wealthy as the deceitful.

 

[markjay]

'Upselling' can be justified, based on the industry and circumstances.

We tell clients that we will propose to them more IT projects than they will be willing to approve. This is a good thing.

We look at all areas of IT, makes proposal as to what can be improved, upgraded, enhanced, etc, how much it will cost, what are the benefits, what are the priorities, etc.

They then decide which projects they want to implement, and when. It's a win-win.

But, again, it depends on the industry and circumstances.

 

[Funkyboy]

It depends how the upsell is sold/offered
Most people see upselling as a way to get you to spend cash on something you don't want or need, where it is to offer a appetiser
- Do you want an appetiser? - feels like a question.
Where you have a car in for a service and they come to you with
- You need new brake lines they are rusty "We shouldn't let you drive away"
Do you want us to do them? - seems more like upselling
I have seen this sort of thing go on as a scam, back in the 80s a well known fast fit outfit, upselling shockers etc to unsuspecting naïve customers, that don't know a good part from a broken one, then the mechanic gets bonus for upsell and also sells the used part as there was nothing wrong with it.
Unfortunately the honest are destined to be poor or at least not as wealthy as the deceitful.

Exactly right. Pointing out something something needs doing is vastly different to trying to get more money out of someone

 

[Funkyboy]

Yes business is all about the money, if you don't understand or grasp that fundamental aspect, then you are living in cuckoo cloud UK !
Up selling is part of any business.
Let's leave the auto repair business for a moment, and look at the hospitality sector for an example.
I expect some of you can remember taking the missus out to dinner.
Joint decision "Let's go to that cozy restaurant in the West End of Podunk Town UK, and enjoy a good T bone steak and French fries and a Salad etc."
You arrive and sit down & the Maitre D' brings the menus which are placed before you.
First, would you like a drink while you are deciding, an aperitif perhaps. If you say yes! That is a direct upsell.
You both decide on the main course but then! Can we offer you an appetizer . If you say yes, then that is an upsell.
The main course arrives and ,can we bring you the wine & beer list?--a potential upsell.
Anything to follow? A desert perhaps, an after dinner drink, cheese & biscuits (very Brtt) again an upsell !
OK get the picture ?
Now with that preamble in place let's go back to the auto repair shop scene .

Any vehicle that comes in the premises for "work "MUST be inspected and road tested BEFORE you touch the actual service, and repair ,obtaining a signature of authorization on the R/O from the customer.
Failure to do this leaves the shop open to all sorts of liability.

So the vehicle is in for an A service , but the inspection shows rusted brake lines and the engine mounts collapsed.
You inform the customer via the service writer that there are serious safety related aspects of the car that need to be urgently taken care of ! Is that an upsell ?
Remember the customer has the right to say NO!

Now dealers advertise teaser rates or Menu Pricing on such things as routine oil changes.
These are loss leaders!
Why do the do it? To upsell services and sell, new or used cars to those who are attracted by these teaser advertising tactics
What is upsell to one is not to another.
Call it barefaced capitalism if you wish, but even since the horse and cart, or the fancy schmancy Oldsmobile carriage & drays in the early to mid 19th century, there was upsell on both sides of the pond .
That was of course when Britain was the head of an empire controlling 4/5ths of the world . Upsell was a way of life then, as it is today.
Tuercas Viejas

Your restaurant comparison doesn't work bit different offering a dessert to pointing out to someone that doesn't know much about cars that they may have brake issues just to chase profit. The car either needs brake work or it doesn't or needs to be monitored over the next few thousand miles for an example.
Some garages target their staff on getting more work which drives the wrong behaviour.


.

 

[Tuercas viejas]

Good post exactly.
The same in auto industry there are re-flashes for certain brands and models.
As for brake lines if corroded to excess and at the point of rupture, or exhibit cracked/rotted flex lines it a potential MOT failure or a hazard.
Its called routine maintenance. Needs to be corrected sooner than later!

This is an actual example.
My eldest daughter is a pediatric surgeon & is always on the go . She lives in Houston and is part of a huge Med team at a famous hospital there.
I get a call ,Hey Dad my car won't start, it just makes clicking sound.
Shoot me a photo of the battery--Result a big ball of corrosion-you need battery & a clean up by the looks of it, whatta mess ! OK I will get it towed to that shop I use.
A call back , Dad the car runs, but they say the engine needs new motor mounts! What's that all about & they want about $750 and they say the car is unsafe ?
What shall I do?
I will given 'em jingle from my shop.
When a Toni picks up, Hi Toni "usual shop banter greetings ", can you give me the the skinny on that car belonging to my daughter Doc Gutierrez Williams
It was brought into your shop on the hook.

Well ye we put a battery on it & it runs OK BUT engine is falling out ,all the mounts are busted. Its shaking like a paint mixer!
Alright.
Have you done a 21 point inspection yet ? Yes! What else do you see.?
Well it could do with a service and when was the oil changed last ?
Dunno I will have to to ask her.
Toni can you look to see if the upgraded copper spark plugs are installed being a Duratec engine.
Well yeah that why it needs service and update to prevent plug blow out!!! Needs updates
OK anything else.
Maybe a coolant flush and a hose set plus an accessory belt change, other than that it looks OK !

Call daughter -Hey Lolocita que paso con su carro vale?
Do you have any abnormal noises when you drive that car? Oh yes Carlos (husband an attorney ) won't drive it because it makes this banging racket when he drives it!
Well Lolo it sounds like you need to spend some money on that car before it falls to pieces . So its going to cost you at least grand but you get a15% discount cos you are related to us in the trade
That's a deal girl !
A few days ,How's the the car --Oh runs nice and smooth like it was when it was new --No Kidding!
Thanks Dad--Yes Lolo its what dads do! !

Now was that an upsell?
Install a battery & terminal clean up for $250 but again upsell a much needed service & factory update plus engine mounts for about $1000?
To me that is much maintenance on a neglected car, that originally just needed a battery .
Yes shop profits enjoyed as a business and again increases the velocity of money.
Tuercas Viejas









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[E55BOF]

I'd say it's not an upsell if the work is necessary; it is if it isn't.

 

[Tuercas viejas]

I'd say it's not an upsell if the work is necessary; it is if it isn't.

Exactly. Always remember you are in control of the repair contract.
Without your approval they (a shop like mine) cannot proceed with any upsell if rejected or denied .
In any case in these modern communication 21st century times ,we as a shop, always take movie film clips of reported defective areas with something like a cellphone,
These ares sent to the client and recorded electronically to the customer R/O file & database.
Should there be an accident etc etc, or a complaint, we have the documentary evidence to support or repudiate any claim.
If your shop isn't doing that, or NOT doing a 21 point inspection they are behind the the curve ball.
This should be is a free CYA activity for both shop & client.
Tuercas Viejas

 

[Rpp999]

Exactly. Always remember you are in control of the repair contract.
Without your approval they (a shop like mine) cannot proceed with any upsell if rejected or denied .
In any case in these modern communication 21st century times ,we as a shop, always take movie film clips of reported defective areas with something like a cellphone,
These ares sent to the client and recorded electronically to the customer R/O file & database.
Should there be an accident etc etc, or a complaint, we have the documentary evidence to support or repudiate any claim.
If your shop isn't doing that, or NOT doing a 21 point inspection they are behind the the curve ball.
This should be is a free CYA activity for both shop & client.
Tuercas Viejas

Fancy opening a garage over here ? I for one would be a repeat customer.

 

[Jockcl500]

Good post exactly.
The same in auto industry there are re-flashes for certain brands and models.
As for brake lines if corroded to excess and at the point of rupture, or exhibit cracked/rotted flex lines it a potential MOT failure or a hazard.
Its called routine maintenance. Needs to be corrected sooner than later!

This is an actual example.
My eldest daughter is a pediatric surgeon & is always on the go . She lives in Houston and is part of a huge Med team at a famous hospital there.
I get a call ,Hey Dad my car won't start, it just makes clicking sound.
Shoot me a photo of the battery--Result a big ball of corrosion-you need battery & a clean up by the looks of it, whatta mess ! OK I will get it towed to that shop I use.
A call back , Dad the car runs, but they say the engine needs new motor mounts! What's that all about & they want about $750 and they say the car is unsafe ?
What shall I do?
I will given 'em jingle from my shop.
When a Toni picks up, Hi Toni "usual shop banter greetings ", can you give me the the skinny on that car belonging to my daughter Doc Gutierrez Williams
It was brought into your shop on the hook.

Well ye we put a battery on it & it runs OK BUT engine is falling out ,all the mounts are busted. Its shaking like a paint mixer!
Alright.
Have you done a 21 point inspection yet ? Yes! What else do you see.?
Well it could do with a service and when was the oil changed last ?
Dunno I will have to to ask her.
Toni can you look to see if the upgraded copper spark plugs are installed being a Duratec engine.
Well yeah that why it needs service and update to prevent plug blow out!!! Needs updates
OK anything else.
Maybe a coolant flush and a hose set plus an accessory belt change, other than that it looks OK !

Call daughter -Hey Lolocita que paso con su carro vale?
Do you have any abnormal noises when you drive that car? Oh yes Carlos (husband an attorney ) won't drive it because it makes this banging racket when he drives it!
Well Lolo it sounds like you need to spend some money on that car before it falls to pieces . So its going to cost you at least grand but you get a15% discount cos you are related to us in the trade
That's a deal girl !
A few days ,How's the the car --Oh runs nice and smooth like it was when it was new --No Kidding!
Thanks Dad--Yes Lolo its what dads do! !

Now was that an upsell?
Install a battery & terminal clean up for $250 but again upsell a much needed service & factory update plus engine mounts for about $1000?
To me that is much maintenance on a neglected car, that originally just needed a battery .
Yes shop profits enjoyed as a business and again increases the velocity of money.
Tuercas Viejas









.

In those circumstances, that is clearly not an upsell, I really can't understand people who don't service or maintain their cars, but continue to drive them when there is an obvious problem, until the point when it breaks down.
Hopefully she will get it maintained regularly now, rather than waiting until it breaks again.

 

[Tuercas viejas]

Good.
Now this is an example of a hard upsell if not a total rip off.
Not our usual fare, but a regular MB customer asked us to look at his daughter's Ford she had recently purchased
Back story
It wouldn't go over 55 mph and a Ford dealer wanted about $2000 to replace the defective ECM.
A quick scan showed nothing wrong but we diagnosed it as a simple speed limiter going active.

My service writer Scotti said I bet its got a MyKey active . (A parental control for teen drivers.)
So she pulls off a broad sheet from the internet.

How to Turn Off Ford MyKey​

Wondering how to turn off Ford MyKey? Columbia drivers who use this Ford technology to set restrictions for all other keys for a certain vehicle may encounter a situation in which they need to disable MyKey.

Steps for MyKey Disable​

To complete a MyKey disable, Irmo drivers will need to start their car with the admin key or admin key fob. From there, follow these steps to clear your settings:

• Start your car to access your display screen.
• Go to the main menu, and select “Settings.”
• Scroll through your options, and select “MyKey.”
• Search for the option that says “Clear MyKey.”
• Select this setting, and press and hold “OK” until you see this message on your display screen: “All MyKeys Cleared.”

Ford Technology: What Is Ford MyKey?​

If you’re driving a new Ford vehicle around Chapin, then you may have access to Ford technology like Ford MyKey, which is quite an innovative feature. A main driver can set restrictions on other keys distributed for the same vehicle. For example, if you have a new teen driver, then MyKey affords you the opportunity to promote safe driving by limiting top speeds, minimizing entertainment distractions, ensuring proper seat belt usage for front seat passengers, and more. Those who use the programmed MyKey, then will be limited by such settings. They will also be required to use any Ford safety features installed, parking aids, and more. Via the MyKey menu on your display screen, you always have the option to change restriction settings, or clear them altogether to return them to their original status.

Where's the admin key?
Did you get one with the car, when you bought it
Its at home.
When you get home call in, and I will walk you through the elimination task.

Having fixed it over the phone, Scotti proceeds to chew the Ford Service Writer's nuts off by calling the dealer involved !
I don't think they liked a female tech (Scotti) giving them some crap & calling them morons.
Talk about a ball buster .

Tuercas viejas

 

[Rory]

Now due to a year it’s due a B service Quoted £850 oil change air filter fuel filter !! Sorry how does that add up

I put a couple of random 2017 GLA's into MyService and oddly it doesn't call for anything other than the B service at £370 (I used MB Cheshire Oaks as the dealer) - no additional work. I guess they may not be 4yrs old which must be throwing things.

They probably charge £100 for the brake fluid, I think newer fuel filters are pretty expensive, plus air filter - however it's still hard to imagine how it could approach £850. Did they also add £50 for a courtesy car?

 

[Rory]

Yes business is all about the money, if you don't understand or grasp that fundamental aspect, then you are living in cuckoo cloud UK !
Up selling is part of any business.
.

Franchise dealers in the UK have a reputation for ripping people off. My daughters are mid-30's and I still can't let them take their cars to garages here - I let one do it last month after recovery due to driveshaft noise. They told her it wasn't covered by warranty and she'd have to pay. I called the service manager and after 30 seconds on the phone he agreed the technician had been too hasty and he would sort it out.

You'll often get a call saying tyres need replacing - one dealer group, and I've personally experienced this, tells people their tyres are "worn close to the European 3mm limit". There's no such thing! You'll be told this as soon as the tyres are under 5mm.

Take a Honda to the local dealer and the Service Advisor will get grumpy if you refuse the "premium service upgrade". It's £30 and you get a bottle of oil and some gloves in a case. I wouldn't mind, but petrol Hondas don't use oil!

I have to say on one of our VWs the dealer keeps missing required service items out - VW changed the Haldex fluid interval from 40K miles to 3yrs and the dealer had no idea (it changed 18mths prior!). They never prompt for the optional items - I'm not sure whether they incompetent or they're just so busy that it's more profitable to bang out standard services. I waited once and the car was in the wrokshop 20 mins.

Visiting a dealership here is just a horrible experience.

 

[Tuercas viejas]

Franchise dealers in the UK have a reputation for ripping people off. My daughters are mid-30's and I still can't let them take their cars to garages here - I let one do it last month after recovery due to driveshaft noise. They told her it wasn't covered by warranty and she'd have to pay. I called the service manager and after 30 seconds on the phone he agreed the technician had been too hasty and he would sort it out.

You'll often get a call saying tyres need replacing - one dealer group, and I've personally experienced this, tells people their tyres are "worn close to the European 3mm limit". There's no such thing! You'll be told this as soon as the tyres are under 5mm.

Take a Honda to the local dealer and the Service Advisor will get grumpy if you refuse the "premium service upgrade". It's £30 and you get a bottle of oil and some gloves in a case. I wouldn't mind, but petrol Hondas don't use oil!

I have to say on one of our VWs the dealer keeps missing required service items out - VW changed the Haldex fluid interval from 40K miles to 3yrs and the dealer had no idea (it changed 18mths prior!). They never prompt for the optional items - I'm not sure whether they incompetent or they're just so busy that it's more profitable to bang out standard services. I waited once and the car was in the wrokshop 20 mins.

Visiting a dealership here is just a horrible experience.

This is disturbing. (Reading this I mean.)
To understand some of these practices you have to look at the the auto repair /service sector from the otherside of the service counter.
The service advisor or service writer is usually compensated by a meagre base salary and bolstered by a commission.
Its incumbent upon he or she to upsell services which increases their take home pay.
Equally the management and their bean counters in the back offices are pressing the staff to increase daily/weekly profits. (In the US its called "spiffs")
No wonder then its a horrible experience, when in fact just like going out for a meal at a restaurant it should be a pleasant experience.

I suppose what comprises of a premium service upgrade in the case of the Honda dealer ?
In the case of the Honda, ask the service manager or general manager directly "Why are you giving a substandard service on Honda when you are promoting a premium service. "! (Put them on the spot)
Is the Honda service interval recommended by them inferior to what you are offering at cost plus?
Tossing a bottle of oil, and some gloves in nice carton is a falsy quite frankly. Adding expensive fluff!!!

Now with that stated, Take a MB Sprinter .
The service interval for that expensive fuel filter is 20,0000 miles
We find that changing it at 10, 000 mile intervals is beneficial due to the huge variation of pump fuel quality across the US.
So we inform the customer that it is a elective .

Boiled down I do not tolerate unnecessary fraudulent upsells.
To avoid this I/We compensate my service writer (in this case) a proper salary and she gets a commission, on what all of my tech staff pick up up on the 21 point inspection as sales bonus on bona fide up sells to the customer.
BUT in every case the customer has the final say --they are the the contractor, it's not the other way around.
Tuercas Viejas

 

[tonysmb]

You'll often get a call saying tyres need replacing - one dealer group, and I've personally experienced this, tells people their tyres are "worn close to the European 3mm limit". There's no such thing! You'll be told this as soon as the tyres are under 5mm.

Visiting a dealership here is just a horrible experience.

I've had exactly this and had checked the tread depth before taking the car in for service; I knew the tyres were fine. European limit? I questioned what that was (I had been waiting at the dealership whilst the car was serviced) and was met with waffle and that it was advisory. The service advisor had already kindly costed 4 new tyres for me, which I declined. Measured again at home, fronts 5mm, rears between 4-5mm. Not impressed.

 

[Fastcar155]

Hi , Cannot say I am surprised by your thread.I was in Mercedes dealer having my car tyres replaced ( I did not pay for them )

As I do if I visit any dealer I have nothing better to do I read all the sales information.

I am sure that replacement of tyres recommended replacement at 4 mm was shown in an advert.

I understand that one tyre producer is pushing for a minimum thread depth of 4mm.My Conti 5p only had 6.5mm when new !