Smart motorways

[Mr. B]

You can criticise a man’s job.
You can criticise a man’s house.
You can even criticise a man’s wife.
But how dare you criticise his driving.

 

[Tom88]

To add to this, saw someone on the M20/M26 or M25 yesterday who ignored 3 of the lane closed signs and blasted across into lane 3 without even a shoulder check...

 

[190]

I don't think smart motorways are a bad idea in principle, they have the potential to improve traffic flow at times of high congestion. The problem is they have already completely lost credibility by slowing traffic down for no apparent reason. It's not the drivers that need to be smarter but the person in control of the signs.

 

[Alex225]

Frankly, it's my view that all "smart" motorways that do not have a continually available refuge lane (hard shoulder) are an unnecessarily dangerous proposition. On motorways, because most traffic is travelling at a similar speed, drivers lose perspective of their absolute speed and thus (incorrectly) tend to lower their concentration level. In addition motorways are monotonous roads to drive on meaning that attention wanders, and this coupled with the cues that would normally heighten awareness in the driver being missing leads to failure to correctly analyse the situation in front of them, with sometimes catastrophic consequences. It's a truism that very few drivers have ever practiced an emergency stop from 70mph, and probably even fewer who have actually had to do it for real, so the combination of their slow reaction to the hazard plus their poor car control due to lack of experience are a recipe for disaster.

Advice for anyone stopped on a conventional hard shoulder has always been to leave the vehicle, and wait at the side of the road well away from the carriageway. Why? Because the chances are relatively high that another inattentive driver drifts partially into the hard shoulder and hits the stopped vehicle at speed. Despite this, some bunch of clowns think having no refuge lane to stop in - meaning the stationary vehicle is in a live running lane - is safe because there is remote video monitoring of the lanes and if an operator spots a stationary vehicle they will illuminate a "lane closed" sign in advance of it. You couldn't make it up.

Couldn’t agree more! I do around a thousand motorway miles a month. I keep left and relax admittedly I consider myself alert but can imagine many just zoning out and reacting to a stationary car late. Let alone the morons who ignore lane closure signs which I have seen time and time again.

Like you say, when you break down on a normal motorway you’re told to get away from your vehicle in case it’s hit by fast moving traffic and that’s in a dedicated safety lane! The M4 is being ‘upgraded’ to a smart motorway which I frequent every other weekend. The thought of breaking down in a live lane and having to get my six year old out of the car and away urgently is a terrifying prospect as you just don’t know if the car will get rear ended!

I assume the use of a hard shoulder and smart motorways are significantly cheaper than actually widening the motorway.

 

[Deleted member 149005]

Rear end accidents occur on the hard shoulder too..

Just because you can’t see the reason for a reduced speed limit doesn’t mean there isn’t a reason for one....something might have fallen off a trailer 1/2 mile up the road...there might be escaped livestock,

That said, I have seen enough false alarms to doubt the veracity of the warning system

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Do they utilise the hard shoulder when there is no speed reduction?

I don't see an issue with that as long as the speed is limited to the same as non motoway routes, cars stop plenty of times on other roads with very few poblems.

 

[Deleted member 126251]

They can’t understand bus lanes where I live. Many drivers are too thick for smart motorways.

Smart motorways, presupposes smart drivers... that's the problem

Yes smart motorways and stupid drivers is not a good combination. By "stupid" I mean incompetent this is probably

To add to this, saw someone on the M20/M26 or M25 yesterday who ignored 3 of the lane closed signs and blasted across into lane 3 without even a shoulder check...

To be fair, if your mirrors are correctly set-up, you do not need to look over your shoulder.

 

[Mr. B]

To be fair, if your mirrors are correctly set-up, you do not need to look over your shoulder.

One should always do a shoulder check to avoid any blind spots

 

[Tom88]

One should always do a shoulder check to avoid any blind spots

I agree in the need for a shoulder check. Could you adjust them for a car? Yes. For a bike? Potentially not. Don't tell me you'd hear an Akrapovič too.

Back to my original comment - if you'd have seen the car swerve across the lanes and nearly take out another motorist that her to jump on the brakes to avoid a collision, you'd see my point. An observed full throttle merge from lanes 1 to 3 in an observed controlled fashion, I would support!

 

[Deleted member 65149]

I always thought motorways without hard shoulders was the most stupid idea ever.

Then someone pointed out that dual carriageways don't have hard shoulders and we are all doing 70mph on those.

I'm confused now

Exactly, so makes you wonder why this comment followed.

Do they utilise the hard shoulder when there is no speed reduction?

I don't see an issue with that as long as the speed is limited to the same as non motoway routes, cars stop plenty of times on other roads with very few poblems.

But it would appear that most aren’t aware of what smart motorways are about, hence:

I’m not a fan of smart motorways.

One gantry will show 40mph, I’ll brake to slow down and no one else will, making me feel like some kind of rolling road block. Then the next gantry literally 400ft away will be 70 NSL, what’s the point.

IMO it’s just an excuse to fit loads of speed cameras.

Smart motorways are there to:

• monitor traffic levels
• change the speed limit to smooth traffic flow, reduce frustrating stop-start driving and improve journey times
• activate warning signs to alert you to traffic jams and hazards up ahead.

When people don’t know this, which appears to be the majority, they get confused and frustrated by the gantry signs. So we finish up with those who abide by the marked lane closures and reduced speed limits, only to get to the end of the restrictions without seeing any justification for them. What the lack of evidence really means is that the signs have done their job and removed the hazard/congestion before it’s made worse by additional traffic. Then of course you get the drivers who think they know better and totally ignore the warnings, arriving in time to make matters worse for everyone.

It’s right, smart motorways don’t work for dummies!

 

[Dryce]

[QUOTE="knighterrant, post: 2817548, member: 65149"
When people don’t know this, which appears to be the majority, they get confused and frustrated by the gantry signs.
[/QUOTE]

One of the problems is that even on adjacent stretches of motorway the signage can be different.

A poster above mentioned false alarms. I would say that on my regular travels I simply don't trust the signage. I obey the signs as rigorously as I can and feel that often I am the only one. And being the only one can be occasionally terrifying - either in dense traffic or even on an almost empty motorway at night if other traffic isn't doing likewise.

My observations are:

• The overhead gantries with the red ringed illuminated speed limit work well. Drivers obey them.
• Signs at the side with a speed limit or traffic incident symbol work less well. Sometimes they are masked by high sided vehicles in dense traffic - which is exactly where you are likely to find them being used. Duhhhhhh.......
  
• Central reservation signs that show a speed or blocked lane or 'End' should be changed. They are next to useless and just confuse drivers. They are too far apart and the distance to the hazard from the first sign is often too great and similarly it's just silly haveing a roadwork ior hazard end and then have one of these signs tell you it's ended 2 miles afterwards.
  
• Roadworks often end ambigously with an 'End' sign that may or may not be combined with a speed limit sign.
• Averaging cameras work.
• Averaging cameras in road works with signs saying they are not active .... why? A large proportion of drivers stop observing the speed restriction. Duhhhhhh ......
• Speed limits with no apparent reason. Seems to happen regularly on some stretches. Drivers just learn to ignore. Duhhhhhh ......
  
• 20 mph speed limits - often dangerous IMO because traffic finds it hard to keep below 40 on a motorway. Those that observe the 20mph are putting themselves at risk.

The whole setup needs a bit more thought.

Also the yellow information signs - there should be a har and fast rule that these only show relevant information to traffic conditions for road users passing them and that they should be kept timely.

One problem with the inconsistency is that the motorway system is extensive and used by long distance drivers. It is possible to drive from Dunblane or Perth to Southampton by motorway (admittedly not the most direct route for either) - and you will encounter several variations in signage and markings and conventions and enforcement en-route on that one journey.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

@knighterrant

A smart motorway (formerly managed motorway) is a section of motorway that uses active traffic management (ATM) techniques to increase capacity by use of variable speed limits and hard shoulder running at busy times.

 

[Dryce]

@knighterrant

A smart motorway (formerly managed motorway) is a section of motorway that uses active traffic management (ATM) techniques to increase capacity by use of variable speed limits and hard shoulder running at busy times.

Simple definition ..... or is it.

Look at the M6 going by Birmingham. There's a n old bit of 'smart mortorway' that has a distinctive hard shoulder that is also available as a an extra lane at busy times.

Simple? Right?

But there's new 'Smart motorway' further north on the M6 that was described during recent construction as being an upgrade smart motorway that basically has 4 lanes and no distuinguishable hard shoulder so is basically a permanent 4 lanes with the traffic management signage.

 

[Benzmanc]

Smart motorways are only as good as those operating them. Yesterday the M6 was closed between J4 and J6, i was travelling from Oxford to Whitchurch. The Matrix at the end of the M40 told you to use M42 and M5 for the North West which i knew would be a terrible mistake due to roadworks on the M5 at J1, but everyone was jumping over a lane to go that way.

I used the M42 (which was pretty quiet until the M6) to the M6 exit which was duly closed HOWEVER the wombles also had the matrix in lane one showing a keep right arrow which was forcing everything into two lanes FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER as immediately after the M6 split it went back to 3 lanes. The ten mins i wasted there could easily have been avoided. I then used the M6 Toll to continue, god knows how long it would have taken had i heeded the first sign saying to use the M5.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Simple definition ..... or is it.

Look at the M6 going by Birmingham. There's a n old bit of 'smart mortorway' that has a distinctive hard shoulder that is also available as a an extra lane at busy times.

Simple? Right?

But there's new 'Smart motorway' further north on the M6 that was described during recent construction as being an upgrade smart motorway that basically has 4 lanes and no distuinguishable hard shoulder so is basically a permanent 4 lanes with the traffic management signage.

Gah!

I've been drawn into another 'mountain out of a molehill' KE thread, the last one (remember those having difficulty joining motorways)? ran for ages.

I'll try and just observe from now on.

 

[Dryce]

Gah!

I've been drawn into another 'mountain out of a molehill' KE thread, the last one (remember those having difficulty joining motorways)? ran for ages.

You haven't.

What has happened is that you've been draw into my particular beef about the inconsistency of road signage and conventions and the interaction iwth driver psychology.

I think this is actually important (yeah so old fart Dryce is a pedant - like none of you ever realised that before!).

 

[Deleted member 6183]

You haven't.

What has happened is that you've been draw into my particular beef about the inconsistency of road signage and conventions and the interaction iwth driver psychology.

I think this is actually important (yeah so old fart Dryce is a pedant - like none of you ever realised that before!).

For the record it was post #30 that triggered my realisation.

I have always thought that the M42 around Birmingham worked well, these days I don't have to travel for work so extensively (down from 50k pa to 150 last year) so I'm up for a discussion about the old grunters parking opposite the tennis courts, less so about motorways that I have barely used in the last 5 years.

 

[AMGeed]

I have always thought that the M42 around Birmingham worked well, these days I don't have to travel for work so extensively (down from 50k pa to 150 last year) so I'm up for a discussion about the old grunters parking opposite the tennis courts, less so about motorways that I have barely used in the last 5 years.

At what age do you consider one has to reach to become an "old grunter"? I know I'll qualify, but I'm interested

 

[Deleted member 6183]

At what age do you consider one has to reach to become an "old grunter"? I know I'll qualify, but I'm interested

It's more a concept than an exact age.

I'd say you don't qualify, yet.

 

[Tonygw]

Exactly, so makes you wonder why this comment followed.


But it would appear that most aren’t aware of what smart motorways are about, hence:


Smart motorways are there to:

• monitor traffic levels
• change the speed limit to smooth traffic flow, reduce frustrating stop-start driving and improve journey times
• activate warning signs to alert you to traffic jams and hazards up ahead.

I agree thats what they are there for BUT what actually happens is:-

• monitor traffic levels :- and then completely ignore them and set signs accoring to the amount of money in the christams party fund. Funds low = change speeds regularly
• change the speed limit to smooth traffic flow, reduce frustrating stop-start driving and improve journey times :- Change the speed limits to various speeds for no apparent reason to help catch speeding motorists and generate revenue. Or set the signs to national speed limit to catch drivers who think this means 80-90mph with the stealth cameras. So many times there is no hazzard or reason for the signs to be on? Base on my many hours and years of driving!
• activate warning signs to alert you to traffic jams and hazards up ahead. And then leave them on for too long or advise drivers that EU customs papers may change as of the 31st Oct (very important for safe driving). Or put themon for no reason what so ever!!

I'm not a fan of smart motor ways at all. I have been driving the motorways for years and find it very distracting to have to monitor overhead speed limits, information signs, lane closures and hard shoulder information along with the task of monitoring all the cars functions, the position of other road users, pre-empting drivers intentions in front & behind, my own speed and position and monitoring for up coming hazzards plus many other things required to safely drive a car at 70mph.

One simple speed limit change can land you a £100 fine before you have had chance to safely adjust the cars speed.

A driver has plenty to do without adding the often confusing and variable speed limits and information now required on these motorways. For me this is a massisve step backwards for safe driving.

Driving should be made easy and its being made much more complicated for the masses. Distractions are a bad thing and thats all these "smart motorways" seem to be. I have yet to see any improvments in traffic congestion or flow. And in many cases my journey times have increased considerably, the M1 is a total mess these days and it never used to be some 5 or more years ago.

I often wonder if the designers of these so call smart motorways ever use them on a regular basis?? I doubt it...