SORN renewal

[219]

I just got a nice letter through the door advising that the SORN declaration on the 280SE had expired in July ! ( So , firstly , why are they only writing NOW to tell me ? ) , and that I was therefore being fined for non-renewal plus back duty .

The circumstances are that I bought the car , unlicenced , back in January and have never got around to getting it on the road for a variety of reasons . There was no tax disc on the car , and I have to admit I never thought about SORN at any time .

However , when I registered the car and got the V5C back there was nothing mentioning SORN , nor did I at any time get a reminder to say that renewal was due . Now I know that I 'could' go onto the DVLA website and look it up ( although I didn't ) , but how would someone with no computer ever find out when they had to SORN their car .

I immediately phoned up the DVLA and asked about this situation , the very nice gentleman on the phone confirmed that SORN 'breaks' when there is a change of owner and that the new owner gets no reminders until he himself has renewed it once himself thus 'getting back into the system' - his words !

From my point of view I have done nothing wrong - there has been a proceedural failure on the part of the DVLA in as much as they never told me when SORN renewal was due , nor to they EXPLAIN how to find out .

I have therefore written the following 'stinker' of a letter back to them and copied it to my MP/MSP for good measure .

I don't think for one minute that it will be easy , but no way will I be paying for their shortcomings either .

The letter -


Area Enforcement Office
Unit A
Fulwood Park
Caxton Road
Fulwood
Preston PR2 9NZ 28 October 2010

Your Ref 330 B******

Dear sirs ,

I have today received your letter , dated 19 October 2010 regarding a failure to relicence the vehicle registered B*** *** , a Mercedes-Benz 280SE .

I have now renewed the SORN declaration via the DVLA website , and noted the renewal date in my diary for next year to avoid recurrence of this situation .

In as much as I purchased the vehicle unlicenced in January of this year , and received the V5C document at that time , with nothing enclosed to advise that I had to declare SORN either at that time , or at any specific later date , I do not see what I was expected to do ?

I did not receive a tax disc with the vehicle as I presume the previous owner had surrendered it , but in the past when I have had other vehicles on SORN I have always received a reminder a couple of weeks before renewal was due and , indeed , have always renewed in a timely manner .

I have just telephoned an advisor at DVLA regarding this matter , and he confirmed that you have no proceedure in place to either advise the purchaser of an unlicenced vehicle the date of SORN expiry at the time of purchase or to send out a reminder before expiry ! Without either of the foregoing being done , a new owner has no way of knowing when SORN needs to be renewed and , unless he/she happens to licence the vehicle before SORN expiry , will automatically receive a penalty notice as I have done today . Might I therefore suggest that you revise these proceedures , either requiring a new owner to declare SORN at the time of purchase , or by notifying the expiry date when sending out the V5C , and ensuring that the new owner receives a timely reminder before expiry ?

If you routinely advise the new owner of a licenced vehicle when an already existing tax disc is due to expire , why do you not advise a new owner of an unlicenced vehicle when SORN is due to expire ?

Since I had no way of knowing when SORN was due to expire , I cannot see that I have done anything wrong regarding this matter and must view it as a proceedural failure on the part of the DVLA - I therefore see no reason why I should pay any fine .

Furthermore , since the vehicle has neither been used nor kept on a public road during my ownership ( it is a Classic Car , still undergoing restoration before being returned to the road ) , I see no reason why any arrears in duty should be payable either .

I therefore formally REJECT both the penalty charge for this alleged offence and the arrears in duty which allegedly arise from it . I take the strongest possible exception to this situation and will pursue all legal avenues to have it resloved in my favour .

Whilst I do fully appreciate and support your policy of continuous licencing/SORN declaration and that there are some people who abuse the system by keeping/using unlicenced vehicles on the road , I am not one of them .

I look forward to an early response to this letter and ask you to acknowledge receipt within the next seven days .

I shall , in any case , also copy this letter both to my Member of Parliament (UK) and my MSP to ask them to look into your proceedures under such circumstances in an effort to avoid others suffering the same fate .

Yours faithfully ,

 

[MOCAŠ]

I think you're on a sticky wicket with this one. Under the continuous licensing system it is the registered keeper's responsibility to ensure that the car is either taxed or SORNed at all times. What you're effectively saying is that you bought the car and assumed that a) the previous keeper had declared SORN, even though he did not pass you any documentation to support this; and b) that any previous declaration would remain valid through the change of ownership.

The onus sits with you as the keeper to ensure that the DVLA has been informed of the vehicle's status. The reminders are basically just a courtesy, and could in any case go missing in the post, etc.

Sorry if this is a bit terse - there's more I could add (and may do later) but I'm pushed for time.

 

[219]

What you're effectively saying is that you bought the car and assumed that a) the previous keeper had declared SORN, even though he did not pass you any documentation to support this; and b) that any previous declaration would remain valid through the change of ownership.

But it did , and DOES , remain valid through the change of ownership .

The SORN only expired in July - six months after I bought the car .

That is the whole point of my letter -

Either they have to require all new owners to make a SORN declaration at the time of purchase

OR

they require the new owner to be notified of when SORN needs to be renewed .

The current situation is just a scam to generate revenue through fines .

 

[Stratman]

If the vehicle didn't come with a VED disc (and you have stated that it didn't) it is up to you, as the owner, to get one just as you would if you were going to drive it on the road.

All vehicles must display a VED disc, including those on SORN for which one will be issued free of charge. You haven't really got a leg to stand on. Your car didn't have a VED disc and you didn't apply for one.

 

[MOCAŠ]

But it did , and DOES , remain valid through the change of ownership .

From the DVLA website:

What is SORN?

Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) means that, by law, when a keeper of a vehicle does not tax a vehicle because it is not being used or kept on a public road, DVLA must be told. A SORN is valid for 12 months unless you tax, sell, permanently export or scrap the vehicle before the 12 months have expired. The legislation that covers SORN is the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002.


I am buying a vehicle and the previous keeper has already declared SORN. Do I have to do anything?

A SORN is not transferable from one keeper to another so you must make a SORN or tax the vehicle if you are going to use or keep the vehicle on the public road.

 

[MOCAŠ]

If the vehicle didn't come with a VED disc (and you have stated that it didn't) it is up to you, as the owner, to get one just as you would if you were going to drive it on the road.

All vehicles must display a VED disc, including those on SORN for which one will be issued free of charge. You haven't really got a leg to stand on. Your car didn't have a VED disc and you didn't apply for one.

Stratman - I think you're confusing SORN with the exemption for vehicles in the "historic" taxation class (pre-1973). SORNed vehicles do not need to diplay a tax disc, but 'historic' vehicles used on the road need to display a zero-rated tax disc.

 

[219]

If the vehicle didn't come with a VED disc (and you have stated that it didn't) it is up to you, as the owner, to get one just as you would if you were going to drive it on the road.

All vehicles must display a VED disc, including those on SORN for which one will be issued free of charge.

First I've heard of that ! I've SORN'd loads of cars before and never been issued a disc .

Sure you aren't confusing it with a tax exempt vehicle for which you DO get a 'free' disc ?

No need to display a disc on a vehicle being kept off road .

 

[SilverSaloon]

No disc if SORN.

But, if you had bought the car and knew it was sorn, but didnt know when that is due to expire, then why didnt you find out? otherwise it could expire at any point.... i dont think they have ever sent reminders for sorn cars have they?

i am sure the law changed about 2 years ago on all this...

 

[219]

From the DVLA website:

Thanks for that - however there is still a proceedural failure in that DVLA do not pass this information to new owners - there was NOTHING enclosed with the V5C to say that I had to make a new SORN declaration if not taxing the vehicle , and not everyone has access to the DVLA website .

Furthermore , if SORN does not transfer from one keeper to the next , why are they saying it expired in July and not when I bought it in January ?

Double standards by anyone's interpretation .

 

[grober]

I fear Derek you may have inadvertently strayed into Vogon Constructor Fleet Territory.
Good luck with the DVLA just don't let them read you any poetry!

 

[MOCAŠ]

i dont think they have ever sent reminders for sorn cars have they?

You get the same V11 reminder form whether your car is taxed or SORNed, and then you decide whether you want to tax or SORN it for the next period.

 

[219]

i dont think they have ever sent reminders for sorn cars have they?

Yes , they do - IF you , yourself made the SORN declaration .

I've had numerous cars on SORN and you definitely get a reminder about two weeks before expiry .

What the chap on the phone explained this afternoon was that if a SORN vehicle changes hands then the new owner does not get a reminder unitl he has SORN'd it himself ! They do send a reminder to the new owner if it changes hands with tax on it , but not if it changes hands while SORN . I suppose in the back of my mind , having had SORN reminders previously for cars I had SORN'd myself , I expected to get a reminder at some point - since the car was not in use and not uppermost in my mind , the absence of a reminder never occurred to me until this letter arrived today .

I admit it was remiss of me not to think about it ( I had intended to get it on the road and even insured it from the date of purchase , even though it has only been once to the MOT station as permitted ) , but there does not seem to be any mechanism for an owner to find out when renewal is due , nor is there anything in the paperwork which comes with the V5C to either say when it expires or that you have to apply for a new SORN - I wonder if it is even possible to apply for a new SORN while an earlier one is still current ? It is all very well being on the website , but not everyone has access , nor would know to look .

 

[SilverSaloon]

You get the same V11 reminder form whether your car is taxed or SORNed, and then you decide whether you want to tax or SORN it for the next period.

If SORN is carried over to the next owner (much like a tax disc is) then i agree with Derek that they should have sent a reminder before it expired in the same way

If SORN isnt carried over to the next owner (which i think is the case?) then its never been SORN since new ownership and therefore i fear Derek can only hope for the issue to be settled out of "goodwill", which knowing the DVLA wont happen.

Derek; Maybe writing to them detailing all the other cars you have including the ones SORN will make them see this is a genuine error - the very fact you have other cars SORN and have done everything by the book on these cars before should help your claim. However, i fear it will land on deaf-ears at the DVLA.

Good luck, anyway

 

[jaymanek]

Sorry but I would pay up on this, Ive been caught out a few times with scrap cars ive bought - now the first thing i do when I buy a scrap car is declare it sorn.

 

[219]

Derek; Maybe writing to them detailing all the other cars you have including the ones SORN will make them see this is a genuine error - the very fact you have other cars SORN and have done everything by the book on these cars before should help your claim. However, i fear it will land on deaf-ears at the DVLA.

Good luck, anyway

Those are pretty much my thoughts too , and exactly why I have written to my MP/MSP at this early stage since a 'letter from the House' usually gets more attention than one from a mere citizen .

 

[MOCAŠ]

Thanks for that - however there is still a proceedural failure in that DVLA do not pass this information to new owners - there was NOTHING enclosed with the V5C to say that I had to make a new SORN declaration if not taxing the vehicle , and not everyone has access to the DVLA website .

Furthermore , if SORN does not transfer from one keeper to the next , why are they saying it expired in July and not when I bought it in January ?

Double standards by anyone's interpretation .

I'm not saying their procedures couldn't be improved, but even if they had sent a reminder and you had not received it, you would still be liable. You could also argue that they didn't tell you to get insurance if you were going to use the car on the road, but it's the law - you're expected to know that stuff and keep abreast of any changes to it. You know what they say about ignorance not being a defence...

Equally, the fact that the information is available on their website is just a convenience for those who have access to it. People without web access can find out by other means (library, phone call, etc); after all, we all had to comply with the law before we had PCs and the internet.

I agree that it's odd (and inconsistent) that they've said that the SORN only expired in July, but if you contest that, they could review their opinion and demand back-payment of the VED to the date on which you acquired the vehicle. Sounds like they've made a concession on the basis of the previous declaration, even though it was technically no longer valid.

 

[st13phil]

Unfortunately, unless you can reach someone in the DVLA that a) has a brain and b) has the authority to act, I fear you will get nowhere except the inside of a courtroom with this one.

The DVLA are systemically incompetent, claim legal authority to do things where none exists, and don't have the capacity to accept that they could possibly get anything wrong. Add to that the small matter that the SORN process as linked to by MOCAŠ states that the SORN expires when you sell the vehicle and I don't see much hope.

 

[219]

The inside of a courtroom will be just fine by me : I feel I can prepare a sufficiently compelling case to have the matter thrown out and a review of their proceedures ordered .

I've taken on bureaucratic councils before , and won , so I'm not in the least daunted at the moment .

I'll see where I get with the letter I've written , and with the help of my MP ( which has worked for me before ) . After that , I can go to the press - I doubt DVLA will relish the PR this might bring them .

 

[st13phil]

Good on you, and I really do wish you well

Just don't underestimate the ability of a disfunctional bureaucracy to waste inordinate amounts of your time

 

[MOCAŠ]

Pontoneer, I'd like to wish you well, but my instincts say that this would be a vexatious case to which the courts would not take kindly.

If I were your MP/MSP, I would only support you if I thought you had followed the correct procedure and that the fault was all on the DVLA's side, but it seems you're looking to quibble over what they did or didn't tell you, when they have no obligation to do so, plus a technicality over the due date that is currently working in your favour.

The fact of the matter is that from the time you bought the car, they had not been notified that it was (still) off the road. The previous owner's declaration cannot remain valid as he is no longer accountable for what happens to the car once he's told the DVLA he's sold it.

As jaymanek has said, I think you should take this one on the chin and learn from the experience. The courts have better things to do... (Just my 2p's worth, of course)