Speed Camera Worker Sacked.

[c240yaz]

So I wonder how often this is happening ?

http://www.lep.co.uk/travel/Why-speed-camera-worker-was.4254237.jp

 

[carnut]

So I wonder how often this is happening ?

http://www.lep.co.uk/travel/Why-speed-camera-worker-was.4254237.jp

Merely sacked? ...for perverting the course of justice!???

 

[Dieselman]

So I wonder how often this is happening ?

In his case about 8% of the time, but it appears there are check in place and it was identified.
The evidence gathered has been rejected and all convictions quashed.
It looks like justice has prevailed but probably only by virtue of lack of guarenteed calibration. That doesn't mean the drivers wern't actually speeding...

A few peoples lucky day I'd guess.

 

[st4]

Interesting. Mistakes do happen I guess and they've been identified and redressed.

 

[Dieselman]

Merely sacked? ...for perverting the course of justice!???

I don't think this would fall under perverting the course of justice. That is tampering with or withholding evidence after an investigation has started. Attempting to mislead the Police.

 

[fuzzer]

I assume the people who have lost their licences,spent time in court, faced higher insurance premiums and wasted time at speed awareness rubbish will be getting suitable reperations for this too?

Seems only fair that the speed camera partnership are taken well and truely to the cleaners over this.

 

[glojo]

I assume the people who have lost their licences,spent time in court, faced higher insurance premiums and wasted time at speed awareness rubbish will be getting suitable reperations for this too?

Seems only fair that the speed camera partnership are taken well and truely to the cleaners over this.

The way I read it this civilian was less than perfect in the way he went about a very important task. Does everyone hear perform there role 100% by the book? I am NOT condoning the actions of this employee, they were wrong and have been sacked, but was this perverting the course of justice? Were the drivers innocent?

Me thinks a few drivers have been very, very lucky, but I bet NONE of them hold up their hands and say, "I was speeding the fine should stay in place!"

John

 

[timskemp]

I assume the people who have lost their licences,spent time in court, faced higher insurance premiums and wasted time at speed awareness rubbish will be getting suitable reperations for this too?

Seems only fair that the speed camera partnership are taken well and truely to the cleaners over this.

Yet another reason why the whole speed camera stupidity should be stopped. Operators have been known to keep scores, target certain vehicles, ignore friends / family / colleagues etc - it is not a fair system and it does not benefit road safety.

 

[carnut]

I don't think this would fall under perverting the course of justice. That is tampering with or withholding evidence after an investigation has started. Attempting to mislead the Police.

Exactly! The "investigation" started as soon as the camera registered over speed and the employee had signed off to say that the equipment had been calibrated ( lie!)which he knew to be untrue and thus wasting police time and getting possibly innocent people prosecuted.Evidence tampered with by not calibrating.
That some guilty people probably got off only makes the matter more serious. Imagine how you would feel if one of these quashed convictions were the main evidence in a very serious accident to a family member for which the prosecution had based its case on the clocked speed!

If society thinks that speeding is serious enough to deprive a speedster of his licence and lievelyhood, then the evidence must be serious as well.

 

[fuzzer]

The way I read it this civilian was less than perfect in the way he went about a very important task. Does everyone hear perform there role 100% by the book? I am NOT condoning the actions of this employee, they were wrong and have been sacked, but was this perverting the course of justice? Were the drivers innocent?

Me thinks a few drivers have been very, very lucky, but I bet NONE of them hold up their hands and say, "I was speeding the fine should stay in place!"

John

all i was meaning was that if you do something wrong they report on it and make a big deal of it by dragging you through the legal system without any

when they do something wrong .. oh they are human..

Ill happilly stand corrected , but ive never heard them say "this civilian was less than perfect in the way he went about a very important task of driving at 83 on a motorway at 8pm on a sunday evening , im sure he didnt mean to speed and the conditions are appropriate to the speed , lets not issue a ticket on this occasion."

The ruthless persicution of motorists in this hyena like fashon has lead to widespread dislike of these partnerships. Its a completely black and white approach to policing the roads sitting in a van instead of getting more patrol cars on the roads dealing with bad driving instead of saying as long as youre not speeding its fine approach that goes on just now.

 

[glojo]

all i was meaning was that if you do something wrong they report on it and make a big deal of it by dragging you through the legal system without any

when they do something wrong .. oh they are human..

Ill happilly stand corrected , but ive never heard them say "this civilian was less than perfect in the way he went about a very important task of driving at 83 on a motorway at 8pm on a sunday evening , im sure he didnt mean to speed and the conditions are appropriate to the speed , lets not issue a ticket on this occasion."

The ruthless persicution of motorists in this hyena like fashon has lead to widespread dislike of these partnerships. Its a completely black and white approach to policing the roads sitting in a van instead of getting more patrol cars on the roads dealing with bad driving instead of saying as long as youre not speeding its fine approach that goes on just now.

I have never been a fan of revenue type camera's but it is so tiring to read thread after thread that continually twists any report, or incident into police criticism. I have done my fair share of criticising but hopefully it has been fair and in context.

We are talking about a civilian that was slightly slip shod in their approach to procedure. The next thing that happens is we start going on about getting more police into cars!! Surely most ANPR vehicles are getting manned by civilians? The people doing the paper work are civilians? The person that has been diusciplined was a civilian!

If we get more police officers in cars then guess what? More people will get stopped for committing what they term as minor issues, and then we all start moaning once more.

Spinners!

 

[Dieselman]

The ruthless persicution.

What persecution.?

You will only be persecution if you are caught breaking the law, which in this case is a speed limit.
The offense is absolute as is camera evidence, which is a lot more reliable than evidence from a Police officer. In itself that stops persecution.

 

[st4]

I guess what is meant is that people feel the roads are too heavily policed compared to other aspects of day to day life, and minor infractions of traffic law more likely to be caught out than a more major breach, like violent crimes, underage drunken vandals etc.

 

[glojo]

I guess what is meant is that people feel the roads are too heavily policed compared to other aspects of day to day life, and minor infractions of traffic law more likely to be caught out than a more major breach, like violent crimes, underage drunken vandals etc.

I'm sure your right, but we must be realistic. What are the chances of what we would all define as a criminal act being committed in view of a police officer?

What are the chances of a someone using a mobile phone in front of a police officer, or committing any number of minor motoring offences? The reality of more police on the streets I guess would possibly mean more road users being prosecuted?? That is only my guess and not a statement of fact.

I hate reading about motorists being prosecuted for travelling at 42mph in a 40mph speed limit, but if we were being totally honest with ourselves I would guess it would VERY, very rarely be the act of a real living, breathing police officer that actually stopped the road user for travelling at this speed? In my experience those that get physically stopped by a patrol car tend to deserve the ticket????

But don't let none of the above spoil a good rant!

Regards
John

 

[Dieselman]

Doesen't using cameras and civilian staff release Police to detect more of the crimes mentioned, or is it that people feel they would be able to get away with more if traffic offences (which are NOT crimes) were dealt with by Police officers.

the offences are absolute so a Police officer should have no leway. the only difference would be the nuimber of cases that could eb dealt with A: in the same time and B: for the same cost.

Let's assume we had enough Police to perform the menial task of ticketing all the speeders a camera can 'nab', the cost per ticket would need to be about £500 per ticket.

Would we be happy with that cost.?

 

[recycled]

What persecution.?

You will only be persecution if you are caught breaking the law, which in this case is a speed limit.
The offense is absolute as is camera evidence, which is a lot more reliable than evidence from a Police officer. In itself that stops persecution.

not entirely accurate.
People have been prosecuted, fined and given points even when they were not breaking the law.
Perfect case that went on for a while at the embankment where the cameras that where to be measuring speed in a 20mph, where pointed in to the 30mph. You approach at 30 and as you slow down to 20mph, you are nabbed by the device.
I know a lot of taxi drivers lost their licences and were on the verge of demonstration in london .

 

[st13phil]

Doesen't using cameras and civilian staff release Police to detect more of the crimes mentioned, or is it that people feel they would be able to get away with more if traffic offences (which are NOT crimes) were dealt with by Police officers.

I think it went far beyond releasing Police Officers to detect more (non-motoring) breaches of the law long ago.

the offences are absolute so a Police officer should have no leway. the only difference would be the nuimber of cases that could eb dealt with A: in the same time and B: for the same cost.

Regarding the cost and time required to detect infractions and secure convictions, have you ever read the Dissenting Opinion of Judge Pavlovschi in the O'Halloran "Right to Silence" case at the ECtHR? I think this passage from his judgement fairly sums up why most people think that automated (i.e. camera) and semi-automated (i.e. some bloke in a van pointing a speed detection device at vehicles) enforcement of speed limits has gone far beyond any justifiable safety benefits:

"I understand the reasoning behind the departure from the basic principles of a fair trial in the case of speed violations: namely, that such offences represent hundreds of thousands if not millions of cases, and that the State is unable to ensure that in each of this vast number of cases all the procedural guarantees have been complied with. I repeat: I understand this line of reasoning, but I do not accept it. In my opinion, if there are so many breaches of a prohibition, it clearly means that something is wrong with the prohibition. It means that the prohibition does not reflect a pressing social need, given that so many people choose to breach it even under the threat of criminal prosecution. And if this is the case, maybe the time has come to review speed limits and to set limits that would more correctly reflect peoples' needs. We cannot force people in the twenty-first century to ride bicycles or start jogging instead of enjoying the advantages which our civilisation brings. Equally, it is difficult for me to accept the argument that hundreds of thousands of speeding motorists are wrong and only the government is right. Moreover, the government is free to breach the fundamental rights of hundreds of thousands of its citizens in the field of speed regulations. In my view, the saying "the ends justify the means" is clearly not applicable to the present situation."

In recent years the combination of cheap automated enforcement and ever reducing speed limits has brought the whole thing into disrepute. The person who was sacked in this case had willfully provided incorrect "evidence" knowing that it would support the conviction of innocent people. If that isn't punishable in law then the law is, indeed, an ass.

 

[glojo]

The person who was sacked in this case had willfully provided incorrect "evidence" knowing that it would support the conviction of innocent people. If that isn't punishable in law then the law is, indeed, an ass.

I agreed with everything you said until the last part.

I think this person became slipshod in the way they were dealing with the paperwork? Is there anywhere that said these motorist were NOT speeding?

I accept we are all allegedly innocent until proved to be guilty, but I'm sure this person did not alter any recorded speeds that would then send out a summons to any one that was not allegedly speeding?

Could any serving officer let us know how often a camera has to be recalibrated? I accept they might need regular checking, but how often have they been found to be inaccurate please?

Regards
John

 

[recycled]

As far as i am aware. to calibrate a device means to set it up to establish a link between the measuring device and the units of measure.
so if there are various things in the device that need calibration, then it could be well a case that no one was axtually speeding at all.
If the device was calibrated to react at speeds of 20mph, instead of the road speed limit, but was then made to read that it was reading speeds of 40mph then that is quite wrong.

A watch can be calibrated to read 2hrs later than GMT , but the facia will still be diplaying time in london.

 

[glojo]

As far as i am aware. to calibrate a device means to set it up to establish a link between the measuring device and the units of measure.
so if there are various things in the device that need calibration, then it could be well a case that no one was axtually speeding at all.
If the device was calibrated to react at speeds of 20mph, instead of the road speed limit, but was then made to read that it was reading speeds of 40mph then that is quite wrong

Hence my question of wanting to know howe often any defect has been discovered? We can all summise or guess about inaccuracies, but when buying a modern digital watch, most of these things are gauranteed nEVER to loose more than the tiniest, most insignificant amount of time fgor the duration of the watch? They certainly do not need any recalibration and I suspect this recalibration of speed camera's is only a procedural thing.

Most appeals for speeding are for incorrect compliance with some very minor procedure. Has there ever been a recorded case where the camera was proved to be regularly giving an inaccurate reading?

Yes I am aware of 'experts' bouncing beams off the sides of box vans etc but that is not my question.