Speeding NIP Vito Sport Dualiner - Massive fine

[biketruck]

Guys - this may be old hat BUT: I got nicked in Scotland for doing over 60mph in my Vito Sport. I thought the speed limit was 70mph on a dual carriageway. But found that I was classed as a commercial vehicle and so my limit apparently was 50mph. I got so much mixed information about whether the Vito Dualiner was a car or a commercial vehicle that it was just a mess to understand. Long story short I had to get a solicitor in scotland to represent me as the cost of me going up there etc.. I got 7 points on my license and £600 fine plus £300 for the solicitor. They told me I was close to being banned!!! FFS

In simple terms - was I robbed? My Dualiner is a 6 seater Vito Sport, used for family and my trials bike. It's standard with windows all around, internal lighting etc. etc. - ie. a leisure dual purpose vehicle.

Any advice? It's done and dusted now, but I keep coming across posts that say they got the NIP withdrawn.

 

[rockits]

Seems harsh & I would have thought it wasn't a commercial.

Does it not classify it on the V5 as I guess that is what they will go by?

 

[geraldrobins]

Looking on MB they are priced ex vat so doesn't that make them a commercial vehicle?

 

[brucemillar]

I think that you are admitting to speeding? but contesting the amount of the fine based on the classification of the vehicle?

Your only option would be to lodge an appeal through the courts. That appeal would have to show significant factual evidence that differentiates from the evidence presented in the original case.

I assume that you would state (with evidence from MB & the DVLA) that your VITO is "NOT" classed as a commercial vehicle?

What did your V5, Insurance and MB say it was at the time of the "offense"? That is what any appeal would be based on, not what you say it is now.

The cost of any such appeal (even it's investigation) may well outweigh any eventual outcome.

 

[Druk]

My understanding is that it's only HGV's of over 7.5tons that have still to comply with the 50mph limit on dual carriageway roads in Scotland.

The limit for your vehicle should surely be 60mph. Well OK, you may well have been speeding but by how much over 60 and does that warrant that level of penalty? Was the road in question at NSL or was it posted at 50 mph? A lot of them are up here. Where was it?

New Rules and Road safety tips for drivers - The Highway Code

Although I stand to be corrected.

 

[Meldrew2]

I had this issue on the A74 some years ago. My Bedford Chevanne was mechanically identical to a Vauxhall Chevette estate but the Police insisted that i had a different speed limit to observe.

I pleaded ignorance and got off with "words of advice" rather than a fine, but I recall the signs at the time, which appeared to show a truck, not a car derived van. That makes me think that Druk (above) may well be right.

What is the Vito classed as on it's Type Approval with the Department of Transport? This may be more germane than the road tax, which is probably Private/Light Goods.

 

[CabrioDave]

You need to give us more information:

(1) As the others say, what was the vehicle claased as, on the V5?

(2) Were you towing?

(3) What speed were you doing? ("Over 60mph" could be 120!)

(4) What speed limit applied, at the location? A dual carriageway is never more than 70 for a car, 60 for a van, but can be less, if signed so.

Surely your solicitor will have gone through those points?

 

[CabrioDave]

There's a previous thread on this subject: http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/gene...ualiner-goods-vehicle-speeding-ticket-no.html

 

[biketruck]

WOW - didnt expect to get so many replies! cool.

Well, here goes...

If you search the web and indeed here - you'll find all sorts of evidence that say things like:

1. It's classed as a dual purpose vehicle - so not a truck
2. It's got rear windows - it's a car
3. It's got rear seats and interior lighting - its a car
4. It's got rear fixed seats and seat belts - it's obviously a car
5. "I got a NIP and I appealed with photos of the seats, seatbelts, windows etc. and got it dropped.
6. The HMRC class it as a car if it has seats, windows and rear belts.

Anyway, it goes on and on. The solicitor said that he specialises in van speed offences - cars that are actually vans. Some police will actually call it a car - so you're ok, but a computerised camera will check the reg - and the reg says its a van - regardless of use or seats or windows or seat belts etc. So i was automatically NIP'd.

I was on the A75 just after Gretna - heading for the Irish Ferry - and yes, I was late due to road works. I thought it was a seventy limit - and was clocked at 76mph - but thought I'd just get a fixed penalty notice. But the reality was they seen the speed limit as 50mph for a commercial vehicle - so it was a court appearance!

I have a screen grab off my 'charge sheet' but dont see how I can insert an image into this thread - as when I do it asks for a URL instead of letting me dip into my docs - oh, I think I've managed it... hopefully there's an attachment now?

I think the whole area of vans and car speed limits is confusing. I'm not even sure whether I should only be doin 60 on a motorway - in England OR Scotland now!

 

[biketruck]

There's a previous thread on this subject: http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/gene...ualiner-goods-vehicle-speeding-ticket-no.html

Yeah, that's my point - lots of conflicting views and anecdotal evidence. But to follow on from my previous stuff, I"ve looked at the log book - the V5 and it's classed as N1 - which is a commercial van. While at the same time, the Tyne Tunnel, HMRC, the bridge into Wales, some insurnace companies etc. etc. etc. class it as a car.

I'm not bothered about appealing - but just think that this whole area is full of holes. The link you sent above actually refers to a police confirmation, from the guys local police force, confirming that the vehicle - with seats, rear belts and windows is classed as a car!

Every speed camera I go passed now I get nervous, cos am not entirely sure of what speed is my limit. What makes it more scary is that some - not all - modern cameras will cross check your reg and flash IF you fall into a commercial category - while others wont. So I could do 60mph on one dual carriegway and get a flash - while on another, no problem.

This of course also raises the question of use - ie. if a family (like me) buys a vito dualiner to use as a people carrier - without understanding that it's actually a truck! Then he's wide open to future problems with speed limits and indee other laws around commercial vehicles.

Phew!

 

[Delayed Steve]

Scotland has got different road laws concerning commercial vehicles and cars.
In England and Wales the 40mph limit on single carriageway roads as been abolished but not in Scotland .
They also have a zero tolerance on speeding in Scotland so if you're caught you're going get a fine.
Van derived cars have one set of rules and car derived vans don't, it all very complicated!

 

[Red C220]

The road tax classification determines if the vehicle is commercial or not. It's quite black and white in that respect and not open to any interpretation.

I fell foul of this a few years back when I owned a Vito and and got a NIP for doing 70mph on a dual carriageway with a 70mph speed limit. I then discovered the limit for commercial vehicles on that road was 60mph.

I got 4 pts and a £200 fine which I thought was a bit strong, but you live and learn.

 

[l5foye]

What it tells you on the internet is somewhat irrelevant. What taxation it states on the registration document V5 is the key issue.

 

[brucemillar]

What it tells you on the internet is somewhat irrelevant. What taxation it states on the registration document V5 is the key issue.

^^ This is 100% correct. Hence why I asked what your V5 says it is?

It is the V5 that you need to challenge/correct with the DVLA. ANPR and the courts do not vary ;^) they just read what the DVLA list.

As mentioned before. Scotland has a zero tolerance approach to speeding. It is viewed as a crime and the courts do not like it. Hence why they will insist on appearing in person. This is deliberate to ensure that you recognise that it is a crime that you are being tried for. Consequently the fines are normally significantly higher than in England and (I believe this is still the case) anything over 100mph is an automatic 1 year minimum ban and can also be accompanied with a re-sit of your test.

My barrister told me that the courts take a dim view of appeals preferring to rely on the fact that "anything" over the limit will be prosecuted (if caught) and that there really is no defense. I appealed and "won". But winning was expensive. I was appealing the sentence (a 1 year ban). I was not helped that on the day the two cases before mine involved speeding fatalities. The court was packed with relatives of the deceased and the evidence was harrowing.

I was told that this is by design and that the courts will often have a virtual speeding day.

 

[CabrioDave]

Actually, the taxation class* doesn't tell you definitively - but the N1 type approval in this case is what makes it a commercial vehicle.

*Two of my vehicles are taxation class "historic vehicle" - that tells you nothing about what licence I need or what speed limits I must keep to!

Whether a vehicle is a 'car" or a "van" matters for income tax, when it's a company vehicle. I see that HMRC has a list of what's what at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/428510/Car_derived_Van_updateMay2015.pdf
... and for the Vito it seems to depend on what roof you've got!

Overall finding: if you've got a Dualiner, be sure you know what kind of vehicle it is!

 

[219]

The rules are here

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

The problem seems to be that your vehicle is recorded as commercial rather than dual purpose on the V5 .

I also seem to recall that weights come into it ( kerbweight and maximum laden weight ) and that over certain weights the lower speed limits apply .

Yes , D&G area seem to be particularly strict .

More useful info here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...es/car-derived-vans-and-dual-purpose-vehicles

Full definition of dual purpose vehicle about halfway down here

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/3/made

 

[Deleted member 6183]

I have a vague recollection that camper van conversions need to be reviewed on the V5 for this, or similar, reason.

The police and courts are very keen on documented evidence, i.e. what the V5 says.

 

[biketruck]

Yeah, thanks for all that. Some great responses there - much appreciated. And yep - lesson learned.. avoid Scotland - in a van!
Cheers
Billy

 

[biketruck]

Thanks for this stuff - very interesting eh. I though I was 'nearly' a dual purpose vehicle but just fell foul of the weight as I think the LWB Vito is 3 tonne - so over the 2 ton limit - but hey ho... I need to 'let it go...'
Billy

 

[Rayny]

If it's taxation class is N1 - then please check your insurance as well, as per the following extract from GoCompare :
People carriers, minivans and multi-purpose vehicles (MPVs)

If the sole purpose for the vehicle, as categorised by the manufacturer, is as a family vehicle for social, domestic, pleasure and commuting use - and the vehicle is not typically used commercially or marketed for business purposes - then it's a car and will be insured as one.

4x4 utility vehicles and double-cab pick-ups are considered as dual-purpose vehicles and will be insured as a van... Regardless of how luxurious the interior is​

If it's designed for family use then it's almost definitely a car.
Key traits are fixed or collapsible sprung seats, windows and carpets. But be aware that there can be confusion over van-derived MPVs - if, for example, its chassis is based on a previous van model.
If there's any doubt, consult your V5 log book. Look for line J, vehicle category:

• If it says M1 it's a car and you need car insurance
• If you see M2 it's a minibus and you need minibus insurance (quote through our van process)
• If you see either N1 or N2, then you officially own a van and you'll need van insurance

Read more at Is my vehicle a car or a van? - Gocompare.com