Style over Substance???

[The Boss]

Hi.

over the last 5 - 10 years, cars have started to get clean lines, especially around the doors, where previously bumper strips or plastic lower panels protruded slightly so as to stop neighbouring cars damage your metal work as the strips and lower half of the doors would protect it (eg lower its on w124s, w140s, and a little on the first panda bear eyes s class) ..

but now design seems to prevail over substance and the clean lines clearly are going to cause some sort of detriment over the shorter life span of the car..

Surely the great invention of the the door guards should never have disappeared.. as i personally do not want my car to show every ripple for door to door contact..

have car deigners , amidst the technology and safety forgotten the common sense solutions and ideas for day to day living??

 

[wemorgan]

I agree that cars are designed primarily with the 1st owner in the front of their minds. After all this is clearly who the manufacturers sell their cars to.

Also too much influence is given to the first 3 years/60k miles life of the car eg. gearbox oil changes.

Paint technology has improved significantly over the past 10-15 years. Especially with regards to dent resistance. Maybe this is why they feel they can remove the door rub strips?

 

[vincenz]

I don't know about paint resisting dents, but certainlly the use of deadening (NVH) pads on the other side and making them from smarter materials helps.

In regards to the door strip, theres an associated cost with fitting them, first you have to stamp the holes/contour in the pannel, which costs in both the die sets and stamping operations, then you've got the cost of the strip itself and the labour to fit, then there is the associated quality costs such as colour match, consistent fit, sealing of the holes to prevent water ingress etc so its easier (and cheaper) for manufacturers to go without.

Further to this you have to ask is a door strip something you would expect on a car? Maybe 40 years ago yes, but now consumers would prefer their money to be spent on other 'expected' items such as folding mirrors, electric seats, CD player etc.

Manufacturers have seen this and know that saving money on one area of the car can make your product more desirable in others.

 

[219]

Folding mirrors ? No thanks : there have been numerous complaints on here about mirrors being stolen thanks to the fixings being exposed when folded . I don't see the advantage in them at all (other than the glass may remain marginally cleaner when folded in) , certainly if someone comes close enough to clip your mirror , chances are they're going to hit your car elsewhere anyway . When parking , having the mirror as the widest part of the car is a good guide ( usually they don't protrude much beyond the widest part of the body anyway as doors , wheelarches , bumpers normally extend out beyond the window base ) ; I can park millimetres from the wall of my narrow drive using the mirror as a guide without ever hitting the bodywork , the mirror being maybe 5 mm from the wall leaves only an inch or two from other parts of the bodywork so a folding mirror would give very little advantage .

CD players ? No , I'll choose my own , thanks .

Garnish mouldings , Sacco panels , call them what you will could easily be affixed usiing adhesive as are badges and other adornments , so no need for holes etc .

What about useless plastic bumpers which shatter at the slightest knock ? The solid metal chromed ones on my cars at least can take a knock and , at worst , may carry a small dent - big deal (not) !

 

[MPG]

I've got a friend with a very very old LandRover. If the bumper on that gets dented it comes off with two bolts thereby allowing you to lay it on the ground and "straighten" it with a big hammer. No colour coded plastic rubbish for them !

 

[wemorgan]

ECE R42 regulates the performance of front and rear bumper fascias.
The fascia is struck with a rigid impactor equal to the mass of the vehicle and a speed of 2.5/4 kph. Afterwards the bonnet, boot, lights, steering and suspension must be fully operational.

 

[vincenz]

Folding mirrors ? No thanks : there have been numerous complaints on here about mirrors being stolen thanks to the fixings being exposed when folded . I don't see the advantage in them at all (other than the glass may remain marginally cleaner when folded in) , certainly if someone comes close enough to clip your mirror , chances are they're going to hit your car elsewhere anyway . When parking , having the mirror as the widest part of the car is a good guide ( usually they don't protrude much beyond the widest part of the body anyway as doors , wheelarches , bumpers normally extend out beyond the window base ) ; I can park millimetres from the wall of my narrow drive using the mirror as a guide without ever hitting the bodywork , the mirror being maybe 5 mm from the wall leaves only an inch or two from other parts of the bodywork so a folding mirror would give very little advantage .

CD players ? No , I'll choose my own , thanks .

Garnish mouldings , Sacco panels , call them what you will could easily be affixed usiing adhesive as are badges and other adornments , so no need for holes etc .

What about useless plastic bumpers which shatter at the slightest knock ? The solid metal chromed ones on my cars at least can take a knock and , at worst , may carry a small dent - big deal (not) !

You've obviouslly missed the point here, well done, but having cars that havent been designed in the last ~25 years may skew your opinion

 

[219]

I don't think I have missed the point at all - this is EXACTLY the topic under discussion .

I CHOOSE to drive cars that were designed by ENGINEERS rather than stylists or bean-counters . I could easily have a couple new plastic abominations on the drive , but like many others , I prefer the cars I have .

I drive new vehicles at work all the time and it always comes as a relief at the end of the day when I can slip into the comfort and security of my own cars .

 

[vincenz]

Thats great Derek, but the original topic was why arent strips fitted anymore.

And the reason is because its an area of cost in a vehicle.

Each time a new model comes out a customers expectations are raised, they expect for some things to come as standard that were options on the previous model, by doing this it sets it out from the competition.

The S-Class is a good example of this, as its always had some of the latest technology in it which is an option and other stuff comes as standard.

This all has to be accounted for so to remove fitting a trim strip some where is an area to recoup costs in order to offer such options.

In response to your flippant reply about the three options I mentioned:

As stated above you can't make bumpers out of metal, unless you have magically fabricated some super ductile light weight metal, which is cheaper than plastic?

In reference to the CD-Player, are you seriouslly suggesting manufacturers should omit them? So make cars with sat nav, bluetooth, telematics and leave a nice 7 by 2 inch slot so derek can put a JVC unit in? Maybe we should leave you a cut out for your 6x9s in the rear as well, balls to that active sunblind

And yes folding mirrors can be pointless, however its areas like this that appeal to consumers, look at how when one manufacturer bring out a feature then other manufacturers want to offer it to make there vehicles (rightly or wrongly) seem as advanced as their rivals

 

[219]

Thats great Derek, but the original topic was why arent strips fitted anymore.

That was only an example given - the topic was 'Style over Substance ????' which is much wider ranging .

The other three examples I commented on were , indeed , brought into the discussion by you , yourself - and I don't think my replies were in any way flippant .

I do realise metal bumpers would not comply with ECE regulations these days , but that does not alter the fact that a metal bumper which only collects a small dent is much preferable to a plastic moulding which splits and needs to be replaced in the event of a car park 'ding' . Many people , like me , mourn their demise .

Radios , CD players ? I'd far rather spec and install my own than put up with some standard piece of cr*p ; it is only in recent years Mercedes statrted fitting radios , they used to always be left out because most customers preferred to choose their own - some even preferred NO RADIO - and enjoyed a cost saving as a result .

Re the comment about leaving holes for 6x9's : who's being flippant now ?

Whilst it is reasonable for cars to be fitted with loudspeakers which suit the accoustics of the interior or simply fit in the available spaces , the electronics were always a matter of personal choice - even then , many manufacturers did offer upgrade loudspeakers for those who were particular about sound , even some relatively 'high end' Hi-Fi manufacturers like KEF or B&W ; again there have been 'audiophile' car audio syatems by the likes of Nakamichi , Denon , Technics as well as the more 'mainstream' makes like Sony , JVC etc. and the 'traditional' German makes like Becker , Blaupunkt etc .

Likewise the other 'gadgets' you mention : if I want them , I'll fit them or spec them - otherwise leave them out and don't make me pay for them !

A Mercedes S Class should not ba about shaving a few pounds off manufacturing costs to allow for 'gadgets' : a Mercedes is about ENGINEERING , if you want cup holders , coin holders , bluetooth etc - then go buy a Nissan ; it's a bit like the difference between having a Rolex or a Casio !

I used to like and run current models , but somewhere round about the 1980's car design and legislation started to turn me off altogether .

I know I am not alone .

Nothing personal - have a nice day !

 

[Dryce]

Folding mirrors ? No thanks : there have been numerous complaints on here about mirrors being stolen thanks to the fixings being exposed when folded . I don't see the advantage in them at all

The real advantage of folding mirrors is for the old and befuddled like me.

I can look back across the car park and get a visual indication that I did in fact remember to lock the car.

 

[vincenz]

That was only an example given - the topic was 'Style over Substance ????' which is much wider ranging .

The other three examples I commented on were , indeed , brought into the discussion by you , yourself - and I don't think my replies were in any way flippant .

I do realise metal bumpers would not comply with ECE regulations these days , but that does not alter the fact that a metal bumper which only collects a small dent is much preferable to a plastic moulding which splits and needs to be replaced in the event of a car park 'ding' . Many people , like me , mourn their demise .

Radios , CD players ? I'd far rather spec and install my own than put up with some standard piece of cr*p ; it is only in recent years Mercedes statrted fitting radios , they used to always be left out because most customers preferred to choose their own - some even preferred NO RADIO - and enjoyed a cost saving as a result .

Re the comment about leaving holes for 6x9's : who's being flippant now ?

Whilst it is reasonable for cars to be fitted with loudspeakers which suit the accoustics of the interior or simply fit in the available spaces , the electronics were always a matter of personal choice - even then , many manufacturers did offer upgrade loudspeakers for those who were particular about sound , even some relatively 'high end' Hi-Fi manufacturers like KEF or B&W ; again there have been 'audiophile' car audio syatems by the likes of Nakamichi , Denon , Technics as well as the more 'mainstream' makes like Sony , JVC etc. and the 'traditional' German makes like Becker , Blaupunkt etc .

Likewise the other 'gadgets' you mention : if I want them , I'll fit them or spec them - otherwise leave them out and don't make me pay for them !

A Mercedes S Class should not ba about shaving a few pounds off manufacturing costs to allow for 'gadgets' : a Mercedes is about ENGINEERING , if you want cup holders , coin holders , bluetooth etc - then go buy a Nissan ; it's a bit like the difference between having a Rolex or a Casio !

I used to like and run current models , but somewhere round about the 1980's car design and legislation started to turn me off altogether .

I know I am not alone .

Nothing personal - have a nice day !

I agree, I think the last of the late 80s early 90s mercs were when manufactureres could get away with any materials and spec.

I dont think we will ever see the over engineered build quality from any manufacturer, with all the legislation and end of life action.

Good discussion to have though

 

[del320]

Hi.

over the last 5 - 10 years, cars have started to get clean lines, especially around the doors, where previously bumper strips or plastic lower panels protruded slightly so as to stop neighbouring cars damage your metal work as the strips and lower half of the doors would protect it (eg lower its on w124s, w140s, and a little on the first panda bear eyes s class) ..

but now design seems to prevail over substance and the clean lines clearly are going to cause some sort of detriment over the shorter life span of the car..

Surely the great invention of the the door guards should never have disappeared.. as i personally do not want my car to show every ripple for door to door contact..

have car deigners , amidst the technology and safety forgotten the common sense solutions and ideas for day to day living??

As Vincenz correctly observed - cost.

I've started preparing for the forthcoming refurb/respray so have removed the six cladding panels from the coupe. They can be completely taken apart to their individual components/clips/fixings etc.

"And how many is that?" I hear you cry.

170

 

[Gucci]

I like pulling my mirrors in at width restrictions - does in fact help with the width of my car- and errr.....it looks good when they ease back into position when I pass the restriction

 

[glojo]

Could they also be rust traps? I have no idea and I think it is daft to remove this item, but if this is cost cutting then why are there such nice standard features? If it were cost cutting then we should go back to the old era where there were no auditors counting pennies and the radio was a cost opition, or air conditioning a really expensive luxury.

Heater sir?? Optional extra

Radio sir... Optional extra

It is nice to say it is the bean counters, but I am not convinced.

Bring back the rubbing strip

 

[vincenz]

Lol
Yep glojo they are rust traps, and some also cause drag that so when you get dirt on the car they also cause the door adjescent to get dirty.

Pontoneer-
I only posted so vocally above because I work for a manufacturer (not MB) and its decisions like this we have every day in the interests of lean manufacture