Supertax On Gas Guzzlers

[stats007]

So they wouldn't have to pay it then as it's a "New Car" tax.

Which is why it's a stupid idea. The car is still being used and still emitting higher emissions. Any extra costs should be proportional to the use the car gets. An alternative would be to pay a charge based on recorded MoT mileages and measured CO2 emissions at the time of testing.

 

[verytalldave]

Which is why it's a stupid idea. The car is still being used and still emitting higher emissions. Any extra costs should be proportional to the use the car gets. An alternative would be to pay a charge based on recorded MoT mileages and measured CO2 emissions at the time of testing.

................or simply do away with road tax and put it all on fuel duty. Thats the only fair way to pay. A little old lady in Devon who uses her Nissan Micra once or twice a week to pop down the local shops pays proportionally less than Mr Fatcat who drives his Bentley Continental 100,000 miles a year.
I KNOW its an idea thats been doing the rounds for many years...........so no jokes about old chesnuts please.

 

[Dieselman]

As I pointed out, it is the owners of second hand gas guzzlers, often the poorer section of our society, who will find themselves with cars they can't sell as they become, as a group, less attractive due to the imposition of higher taxes.

This is a "New car" tax, how will it affect 2nd hand purchases? The cars will devalue because people don't want them...that is democracy.

There is undoubtedly a knock on effect. When the government knocked down new car prices a few years back, I subsequently found myself with a three year old car which was not worth the residuals I had to pay for it.

How did the Government knock down the price of new cars?

Also, I believed we were a democracy. Why is the government ignoring the views of the majority? What gives them the sheer arrogance to assume they know better than the rest of us? Shades of Mr Blair........

As said before we do have a democracy but due to some people not wanting to adopt changes they don't like the Government has to Govern...it's what they do.

Maybe it is selfish, but that is the human way, we have always used the resources available.

Nice approach..

Unfortunately the link between CO2 and temperature which is that CO2 levels rise after temperature,

Says who.?

seem to fly in the face of the theory that we are responsible for global warming. The Hadley Centre in fact only state their belief that human CO2 output is enhancing global warming effect (note, not causing), but do have plenty of caveats about scientific controversy and climate change being a complex subject.

That's science all over, especially when researching new topics. This phenomenum has only been researched for about 20 years so no scientist can give either certainty or otherwise.

And lest we forget, Galileo was imprisoned for suggesting the earth went round the sun.

Doesn't it just show how unpopular scientific findings can actually be correct.

History, if it teaches us anything, shows that the majority of scientists are usually wrong on any new theory, it is the voice crying in the wilderness which is correct.

And we are talking the Met Office which struggle to get a correct forecast two or three days ahead telling us

When did they last give a particularly incorrect forcast, I find them pretty reliable.
A short term forcast is different to collecting years of information and data.

"The bottom line is that current models enable us to attribute the causes of past climate change and predict the main features of the future climate with a high degree of confidence"

In scientific terms that's a pretty strong statement. No scientist will give a 100% definate statement on new research.

The quantity of pink pigs flying past my window is increasing by the minute

 

[stats007]

................or simply do away with road tax and put it all on fuel duty. Thats the only fair way to pay. A little old lady in Devon who uses her Nissan Micra once or twice a week to pop down the local shops pays proportionally less than Mr Fatcat who drives his Bentley Continental 100,000 miles a year.
I KNOW its an idea thats been doing the rounds for many years...........so no jokes about old chesnuts please.

Agreed. How much does it cost to actually administrate VED - got to be cheaper to lump it in with fuel duty?

 

[Dieselman]

................or simply do away with road tax and put it all on fuel duty. Thats the only fair way to pay. A little old lady in Devon who uses her Nissan Micra once or twice a week to pop down the local shops pays proportionally less than Mr Fatcat who drives his Bentley Continental 100,000 miles a year.
I KNOW its an idea thats been doing the rounds for many years...........so no jokes about old chesnuts please.

Ok lets go for roast this time then....

Seriously, that already happens doesn't it, or has all the bitching about fuel taxation and prices all been lies....

The RFL charge makes a clear statement and focusses peoples minds.
It obviously works otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[verytalldave]

Agreed. How much does it cost to actually administrate VED - got to be cheaper to lump it in with fuel duty?

That is certainly one reason why the VED is still around. Knock out VED and the main employer of Swansea goes down the pan. Not a vote winner I think you will agree.
How many are employed by the Licence department? Its got to be upwards of a few hundred - if not a lot more.

 

[Dieselman]

It has been mentioned that we should let the majority decide. Well I think the majority are probably in favour of reducing CO2 pollution.

As an example whilst shopping for a new kitchen appliance (not the Wife) the other week I asked how many buyers took notice of the energy efficiency labeling displayed on the products.

The answer surprised me. Nearly all buyers now wanted the best energy rated appliances and were only interested in grade A or A+.

Needless to say I bought A+ even though it cost more.

 

[verytalldave]

Ok lets go for roast this time then....

Seriously, that already happens doesn't it, or has all the bitching about fuel taxation and prices all been lies....

The RFL charge makes a clear statement and focusses peoples minds.
It obviously works otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It works - but it could work a whole lot better...............
As for saying that already happens........to a point, but not truly in proportion to the mileages or fuel consumed. 2 next door neighbours both run similar cars. Each pay the same in VED. One does 1000 miles a year, the other does 100,000. Both pay the same. Thats my point.

 

[stats007]

It has been mentioned that we should let the majority decide. Well I think the majority are probably in favour of reducing CO2 pollution.

As an example whilst shopping for a new kitchen appliance (not the Wife) the other week I asked how many buyers took notice of the energy efficiency labeling displayed on the products.

The answer surprised me. Nearly all buyers now wanted the best energy rated appliances and were only interested in grade A or A+.

Needless to say I bought A+ even though it cost more.

Can I assume you have also gone vegetarian ?

 

[Dieselman]

Can I assume you have also gone vegetarian ?

No, but I am aware of the methane issue.

However I'm not sure Daisy is the only problem. These threads must surely account for quite a percentage....

 

[Dieselman]

2 next door neighbours both run similar cars. Each pay the same in VED. One does 1000 miles a year, the other does 100,000. Both pay the same. Thats my point.

So they will pay vastly different fuel taxation bills, will they not?

The VED is just a licence to use the road and to act as a clear indicator that the vehicle is covered by MOT and Insurance.

 

[verytalldave]

It has been mentioned that we should let the majority decide. Well I think the majority are probably in favour of reducing CO2 pollution.

As an example whilst shopping for a new kitchen appliance (not the Wife) the other week I asked how many buyers took notice of the energy efficiency labeling displayed on the products.

The answer surprised me. Nearly all buyers now wanted the best energy rated appliances and were only interested in grade A or A+.

Needless to say I bought A+ even though it cost more.

I think you are absolutely correct. I certainly check when I am buying a large power hungry appliance like a washing machine or television. I also have low power bulbs everywhere possible in my home.
It was also a consideration when I bought my car a few months back. I bought a C200K which gives me quite adequate performance, yet is not into band G for VED.
Had there not have been the variable tax band system in place, then I probably would have gone for something a bit punchier.
Dont get me wrong. I am all in favour for reducing CO2 emissions wherever possible. But lets get real. We must not ever be told by our governments that the UK deserves to be taxed as though it is the bad boy of the world.

 

[stats007]

VED is based on emissions - so it's no longer just a license to use the road though is it? You're taxed at a higher rate for potential emissions - not what is actually emitted.

 

[R2e]

Dieselman, won't copy your post as it's getting out of hand! But -

1. The government attacked UK car prices round about the turn of the century, you may recall at the time it was a great deal cheaper to buy directly from Europe. Yes it needed to be done, but it meant the value of my (bought new at the higher prices but now used) car dropped, quite clearly cause and effect. This is what I mean by new car prices affecting the desirability and price of second hand cars. To put it in simple terms, if no-one buys 4x4's any more because they are made unpopular due to taxation of whatever kind, second hand 4x4's will also be unpopular, difficult to sell and therefore prices will drop.

2. I see, the government only has a mandate to do what it thinks best despite the (democratic) views of its constituents? Yes, that just about sums up what happens, I just don't think it's right.

3. Not advocating selfishness, just stating a fact.

4. It is the view that we are not responsible for global warming that is the 'unpopular' one, despite the fact it is the view of the majority. Or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

5. Try, as a colleague and I did, monitoring the 5 day forecast on a daily basis. You will be stunned how often it changes, on a Tuesday, the view is Friday will be cold and rainy, by Wednesday Friday will be sunny, on Friday it snows. I don't criticise, only point out that climate prediction is an extremely innacurate science on anything over one day unless conditions are extremely stable, despite all the supercomputer models. I cannot see how they can state that their climate change model is any more accurate. And didn't the models say we were to have an extremely hot summer this year?

And lest we forget, Sadam Hussein had WMD which could target UK interests in 45 minutes. Who can believe anything the government says about global warming, particularly when they can get their hands on more tax without too much opposition, as is the case with 'green' taxes. And Labour has always been about taxing.

 

[Dieselman]

VED is based on emissions - so it's no longer just a license to use the road though is it? You're taxed at a higher rate for potential emissions - not what is actually emitted.

It's based on g/km, so it is what is actually emitted.

The fuel then adds the additional for the total amount consumed..unless like me you pay less fuel tax...ha ha..

 

[verytalldave]

So they will pay vastly different fuel taxation bills, will they not?

The VED is just a licence to use the road and to act as a clear indicator that the vehicle is covered by MOT and Insurance.

So make the licence fee a blanket £5 to cover administration costs.
I know they pay different amounts. Obviously. But in disproportionate amounts. Its quite a simple concept. The more petrol you use - the more you pay. Proportionate to your mileage and car type. You pay EXACTLY according to your level of use.
As an added bonus all the existing thousands of VED tax dodgers cannot escape paying duty AND visitors from abroad as well. Unless of course they drive diesels and fill up with Mazola.

 

[Dieselman]

Dont get me wrong. I am all in favour for reducing CO2 emissions wherever possible. But lets get real. We must not ever be told by our governments that the UK deserves to be taxed as though it is the bad boy of the world.

Not got you wrong at all Dave.
I see in your posts that you do actually think about this, but not all people do so the Government has to persuade them and unfortunately the only way to do that is via their wallets.

Just like you I might fancy a really rorty car, but social concience, not cost, stops me doing that.
I am sacrificing that for everyone elses childerns future. Not really too much of a price to pay.

 

[verytalldave]

5. Try, as a colleague and I did, monitoring the 5 day forecast on a daily basis. You will be stunned how often it changes, on a Tuesday, the view is Friday will be cold and rainy, by Wednesday Friday will be sunny, on Friday it snows..........

The London Met office have recently publically admitted on televison that it is impossible to accuratly predict weather in the UK further than 48 hours. Obviously they have a pretty good idea that it aint gonna snow in August or have a heatwave in January, so its all down to simulations and trends. In other words, guessing.

 

[stats007]

It's based on g/km, so it is what is actually emitted.

The fuel then adds the additional for the total amount consumed..unless like me you pay less fuel tax...ha ha..

Precisely - it's a measurement per kilometre. The fuel doesn't currently incorporate duty for this. One or the other please - not both.

 

[Dieselman]

Here are the current rates for RFL. As you will see there are more winners than losers under the new taxation scheme.
some people will pay a whopping £35 per year road tax, as long as they drive a low emission car.

The tax disk is a simple check of legality but also provides the general public with a clear reference to a vehicles emissions and cost to run.
A low taxation car also uses less fuel so all someone needs to know is what is the taxation class of the vehicle to get a reasonable idea of running costs.

Very simple.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524